Dr. Tracy Brower | How We Can Get Back to Work and Bring Life to Work

Dr. Tracy Brower is a work environment sociologist and a Principal with the Applied Research + Consulting Group at Steelcase. She is the author of Bring Work to Life by Bringing Life to Work: A Guide for Leaders and Organizations, which focuses on work-life fulfillment. Dr. Brower is a contributor for Forbes and Fast Company, as well as an executive adviser for Coda Societies and the MSU Professional Mathematics Program, and she is also an award-winning speaker with over 25 years of experience working with global clients to achieve business results. She is also a board member for the FM Research & Benchmarking Institute and her work has been featured in TEDx, the Wall Street Journal, and other publications. Dr. Brower holds a PhD in the Sociology of Work as well as a Masters of Management (MM) in Organizational Effectiveness, and a Masters of Corporate Real Estate with Workplace Specialization.

In this episode, John Corcoran talks to Dr. Tracy Brower about what businesses and employees should do to get ready to go back to work after the current health crisis. They talk about how the work environment has changed over the last couple of months, how company leaders should become present and visible to effectively take charge and guide their teams, and the importance of staying connected during a crisis.

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Here’s a Glimpse of What You’ll Learn:

  • Dr. Tracy Brower’s observations on how the work environment has changed because of the current health crisis
  • How leaders can step forward, guide their teams well, and lead their companies forward
  • Best practices to keep in mind for leaders of companies that are laying off their staff
  • John and Dr. Tracy talk about businesses and people who reacted quickly after the outbreak
  • Dr. Brower explains what she means by great leaders being present and visible
  • The importance of leaders staying connected with their staff during a crisis, the impact of sharing regular videos, and how leaders can offer additional support to their staff
  • How the crisis is improving relationships and making people more empathetic with their colleagues about work life
  • How companies are likely to handle employees going back to work after the crisis and the possibility of companies continuing with work-from-home set ups
  • How companies and businesses are innovating and pivoting in times of crisis
  • What companies need to do to bring life back to work in the coming months
  • The people Dr. Tracy acknowledges for her achievements
  • Where to learn more about Dr. Tracy Brower

Resources Mentioned:

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Episode Transcript

Intro  0:10  

Welcome to the Revolution, the Smart Business Revolution podcast where we ask today’s most successful entrepreneurs to share the tools and strategies they use to build relationships and connections to grow their revenue. Now, your host for the revolution. John Corcoran.


John Corcoran  0:40  

All right. Welcome, everybody. John Corcoran here. I’m the host of the Smart Business Revolution podcast where I talk with CEOs, founders, entrepreneurs, authors, speakers, and many you know founders and CEOs of companies and organizations like YPO, EO, Activision Blizzard, Lending tree, Opentable x software and many more. I’m also the co-founder of Rise25 where we helped connect b2b business owners to their ideal prospects. 

I’ve got a great guest for you here today. Dr. Tracy Brower is a sociologist. She is the author of “Bring Work to Life by Bringing Life to Work”, which is a really relevant piece of work in today’s day and age, given what’s going on with coronavirus, and we are actually recording this right now, in the beginning of May 2020. Just to give you a touch point, the coronavirus pandemic is continuing to unfold. And so I’m really interested to talk with her about some of her predictions for the future and how this is gonna affect work, how it’s gonna affect companies, that sort of thing. She’s also a contributor for Forbes.com and Fast Company, and also a Principal with the Applied Research and Consulting Group at Steelcase. She’s an award winning speaker with over 25 years of experience working with global clients to achieve business results and an Executive Advisor to Coda Societies and the MSU Professional Mathematics Program. Her work has been featured in TEDx, Wall Street Journal, all kinds have different publications and that sort of thing. 


But first, before we get into this interview, this episode is brought to you by Rise 25 Media and if you’ve been listening for a while, you know how passionate we are about podcasting and content marketing that uplevel is your network. We are a podcasting evangelist. And for 10 years, we’ve been saying everyone should start a podcast, like I am here to talk to Dr. Brower in a moment and get her to ask her all kinds of questions of interest to me. But really, it’s like a Swiss Army knife. It’s a tool that accomplishes so much. It can and will lead to great clients referrals and strategic partnerships. That also will lead to great conversations, great relationships, and great content marketing. So to learn more, go to rise25media.com or email [email protected] 


All right, so Dr. Tracy, honored to have you here and I’m honored to pick your brain if you will, a little bit on some of these topics. You know, I think that you know, personally, I’m guessing you, you look like you probably were around during 911, probably experienced it. You also experienced 2008. So we’ve been through these things before, but nothing is quite like this. This really feels so different. What are just to start off, what are some observations that you’re writing about thinking about observing in terms of how work is being changed right now?


Dr. Tracy Brower  3:26  

Yeah, well, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. It’s incredible because it’s so unprecedented, and happens so fast. It’s happening so ubiquitously to us. And it’s touching so many parts of our lives, the way we work, the way we socialize, the way we play, the way we heal, the way we learn. You name it and it’s in. It’s affecting big things like life and death and incomes and livelihoods. And small things like the kinds of products that we buy, whether or not we can go out for lock. So that’s part of what makes it so significant. I think that this is one of those things that’s going to split our lives. We’re going to say to ourselves, you know, remember all those times before the pandemic, and then they’re going to be these things after the pandemic. But I think the really interesting thing as we talk about work, is the idea that we are in the biggest moment of reinventing work than we’ve ever been before. Like it’s just, it’s gonna be this enormous reinvention of the way we think about work and the way we go to work the way we conceive of work. I love that positivity in, in your message in your writing, particularly on Forbes, you’re looking at it from a glass half full type of perspective, looking at some of the positive impacts that can come from it, particularly for leaders for example, you know, you’re you’re saying some amazing leaders are really stepping forward and they’re doing great things, to lead their teams to give them certainty to lead the lead the company forward. What are some things you’re seeing in terms of leadership and best practices right now? Yeah. You know, that’s a really interesting thing. And I love to think from a glass half full perspective and an optimistic perspective. We don’t want to be Pollyanna, you know, like, resilience is about the ability to be in touch with reality, the ability to make sense out of reality, and then the ability to improvise and figure out how to respond. But that’s not being Pollyanna. So I think it is important to acknowledge reality. And that’s actually one of the things that leaders do really well. When leaders are leading well. They’re talking about what’s really going on. They’re being realistic, they’re being authentic, they’re being clear that they don’t have all the answers at the same time. I think they’re able to really point people to the future and motivate them toward a place that they’ll get through together. You know, like, we may not all know exactly how it’s going to come out in the end, but by goodness, we’re going to get there together. And I think leaders are really honest, you know, like, leaders may not be able to give promises about things. So they need to be honest and balanced about optimism. That is also realistic.


John Corcoran  6:08  

Now, for there’s kind of two different kinds of leaders right now, right? There are companies that are doing okay, or maybe even thriving. And then they’re leaders of companies that are not leading to layoffs. We see all the headlines. Let’s talk about that for a moment before we move on to the more positive ones for the for the companies that are having to do layoffs that are having to be brutally honest with some of their employees, some are even telling their teams you know, take a voluntary separation now, if you can, different things like that. What are some of the best practices for them? How should they approach that situation?


Dr. Tracy Brower  6:48  

Yeah, I think it’s a really, really important question. I think a really big part of it is being honest with people as early as you can, and making those tough decisions like some Those decisions are gut wrenching. But you’ve got to be able to balance the needs of people with the needs of the business. And you hear people say, so often I can handle whatever the message is, it’s harder to be in limbo about the message than it is to get a hard message. So to be as honest as possible, as early as possible, I think to make sure that the message is focused on the facts, but that the message is also really one of empathy and compassion. So you know, leaders are making hard decisions. They’re giving really hard news, but if they can be empathetic about it and compassionate about it, that’s a really big deal.


John Corcoran  7:38  

Yeah. And did you, I don’t know if this was your observation as well, but I felt like there were some really definitive, hard decisions made very quickly for a lot of different companies stunningly quickly. You know, like, you know, Danny Meyer, who’s the restaurant tour for his Shake Shack and a bunch of different chains he laid off like eating percent of his staff, I want to say within a week or two into, as this was really unfolding kind of quickly. And there are a bunch of other examples of that. And I’m not sure if that is just my perception or if perhaps, people were reacting, and people having lived through 2008. They didn’t want this thing to drag out.


Dr. Tracy Brower  8:23  

Yeah, I think that’s a great point. I mean, sometimes those early decisions are helpful to people because they’re not stringing people along. The other thing that I hear leaders doing really, really well is having a really good understanding of the protocols and laws related to unemployment and the kind of financial support that people have available. What I was hearing is that some of those early decisions actually gave people access to support financially that they wouldn’t have already had. And so it just really was some of those decisions, really nicely informed by facts and by This emphasis on what would really be best for people. I think the other thing that’s really helpful is when leaders can, as much as possible, give people enough information that they can make some of their own choices. So you also hear companies who are, you know, offering early layoff or early retirement, excuse me, or like a voluntary layoff. And they give employees enough information that they can make some really good decisions themselves. You know, one of the other things I think that’s super interesting is that there we are so inundated by information and there’s this information overwhelm and, you know, false news and not false news, and where do you turn and who do you rely on? And so a lot of times, employees look to their company as a single source of truth and sometimes look to leaders as a single source of truth. And that’s a huge responsibility because no leader has a crystal ball. On the other hand, I think it’s really useful when leaders can help put things in context. They can help make sense of things. So I may not understand every single possible dynamic related to the pandemic. But as a leader, I have a responsibility to understand how it impacts on our company, and our market and the team and the work that my employees are doing. And the more leaders can help put things in context and help make sense for employees, the better, again, with authenticity, they don’t have to have all the answers and they need to be careful not to send the message that they do, but putting things in context and being that source of sense making can be really helpful.


John Corcoran  10:36  

And another thing you’ve written about is that great leaders are present and visible. And you know, in an earlier life, I was a practicing lawyer. In fact, in 2008-2009, I was a practicing lawyer and working with a lot of different businesses, including many which struggled during that time period. And it was so hard for these business owners. You know, oftentimes their life’s work was crumbling, coming to pieces. And it was so personally painful for them, and hard for them to face their employees feeling like a failure, feeling like they failed them. And yet, that was what they needed to do. And I saw a lot of great people do it. I saw a lot of people struggle with it, too, you know. So I just wanted to ask you a little bit about that point about that. Because I’m sure you feel the same way just how difficult that is for leaders to be present and visible, as a business is failing or suffering major layoffs.


Dr. Tracy Brower  11:31  

Yeah, that’s huge. That presence and accessibility and I think it’s really interesting. We’ve talked to a few clients and their leaders have tried to stay really present, like they’ll do a, you know, Friday afternoon podcast from their home office, or they’ll, you know, stay in touch regularly through an email or something like that. Video is probably better than email in these times. But like some of the coaching that those leaders have gotten is you don’t have to have all the answers. You don’t even have to say anything. Super substantive, maybe you’re just talking about how your week has gone and what you’ve learned this week and how you’re getting through it. But people need to hear that voice. They need to feel that presence. And the reason is that it gives continuity and some predictability and some consistency in the message. And people appreciate that during times of difficulty. One of the things we know sociologically is that it is our instinct as humans to pull together during times of difficulty or challenge or threat. And the really tough part about the pandemic and all this social distancing is that it flies in the face of what is natural and instinctual for us. We want to be together, we want to be connected. And so that’s a really big part of what leaders can do is be present and accessible. And the other part of being present is really attending to people and people feeling like leaders are paying attention. Not just broadly and generally to the organization, but to them specifically, like my leader kind of knows what’s going on, I might not have to know my deepest, darkest secrets. But if my leader knows what’s going on, and just has a sense, that, that, that I’m challenged or that things are going well, or things are going less well, that feeling that somebody’s paying attention can be really, really valuable. Yeah,


John Corcoran  13:23  

and I love that you said, sharing a regular video like that, because that’s actually something that I’ve been doing for the last few weeks has been doing a regular Friday video screencast. It is recorded via loom and it just kind of some observations from the week. Part of the reason I’ve been doing it is because I know how depressing the news has been. I’ve personally tried to limit my intake of the news, look it in the morning, look at it in the evening, but not during the day because I don’t want to get derailed during the day. So I’m just, you know trying to, for our team just trying to pick them up, let them know because we’re in a very fortunate position, you know, and I realized that that our company right now is in demand. And that’s a very I feel very privileged to be at that point. But I love that you said that. So any tips for companies listening to this about, you know, sharing those types of videos, any further tips on that point?


Dr. Tracy Brower  14:19  

Yeah, I mean, I think more is more, I think the other thing that’s really nice is to hear from that senior leader, but sometimes it’s nice to vary the voices, you know, like multiple people in places of leadership or places of influence can be really helpful. I think we’re also seeing the sort of expansion of support for employee programs of all kinds. So we’re seeing lots of videos and podcasts, you know, like it’s yoga on Tuesdays with Christine or, you know, mindfulness on Mondays, that kind of thing. We heard about one organization who serves food like free food is a really big part of their employee value equation and all these options Boys are going home and they’re not sure how to cook for themselves because it’s some for some of them. It’s their first job out of college. So they’ve been doing videos on how to prepare food or how to be nutritional or kind of funny, but it’s a really great use of that medium in terms of staying close and a lot of different ways.


John Corcoran  15:17  

Yeah. And you wrote an article for Forbes, about five predictions about how Coronavirus will change the future of work. And those are some of your predictions that employers are going to expand the support that they provide. Now, if I’m going to be a contrarian here, if I’m an employer, and I’m thinking, well, we’re struggling right now we’re having to do layoffs, and we’re supposed to do additional support. How are we? How are we gonna make that work?


Dr. Tracy Brower  15:42  

Yeah, I think that’s that is the $6 million question and the pushback that I hear a lot because it’s all about cash flow, right. Um, I think that the opportunity is that when we invest in people, we get so much more in terms of their discretionary effort. These are strange, strange times with lots of people furloughed and high unemployment levels. But even so you want to maintain your best and brightest. And so people in kind of counter intuitively have more opportunities than they might have had before. So you want to keep those best and brightest. I think the other thing is to think that a lot of those kinds of investments don’t have to be out of pocket investments. If you’re, you know, doing an educational program that helps people with mindfulness, you know, on Wednesday morning, for example, you can have somebody on your staff do that, and you’re not necessarily paying out of pocket for it. Or if you’re setting up a mentorship program, that’s about connecting people with each other. That’s not necessarily a heavy cash investment on your part as a company. So I think there’s some really important things you can do that are an investment and literally a cost to you. And there are other things I think that we can think about that are really not an out of pocket investment. But an investment of time and energy and how you spend that energy as an organization.


John Corcoran  17:05  

That’s a great point. And a couple other points you made in the article, which I thought were really powerful were one you said, your relationship with your teammates will improve, which goes back to what we’re talking about just kind of people naturally bond together, click together, which is what’s been kind of devastating about the nature of this particular crisis, because we can’t even hug one another right? You know, I mean, it’s just such a weird feeling to be going through that I’m fortunate I have a family but I, I couldn’t imagine being, you know, single living alone, and that and that would just be extremely, you know, lonely. But then another point that he made was, you know, your boss and teammates will be more empathetic about your work life. And I feel like we’re at this moment in time where our work life is coming into everything. Like right now I’m interviewing you. And I’ve done other interviews where my three year old or my six year old or my nine year olds are in the corner, you In the corner during the videos, I’m doing the interview because there, my wife and I are balancing, you know, childcare responsibilities. So it kind of feels like it was thrust upon us. But you say that, you know, people will become more empathetic about that.


Dr. Tracy Brower  18:14  

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the sociological concepts that I really, really appreciate is that idea of the common enemy phenomenon. That’s the kind of way that we refer to it with air quotes. And the virus is surely a common enemy, the pandemic, right, so we’ve lived through it together, and we bond together because we survive it and we get through on the other side. But I think the other really interesting thing is you get a new window into people’s lives, right, like, like one of the things we also know is that relationships are built on and on a recognition and appreciation of what people are going through. There tends to be a kind of virtuous loop, a reinforcing loop that’s set up the more I see you, the more I learned about you The more we get to know each other, proximity is the number one determinant of relationship, the people that we tend to see more tend to be the people that we have deeper relationships with. And of course, you have long distance people that you’re close to. And that’s all fair. But in general, that proximity drives relationships. And all these crazy times have video conferences with my dog barking in the background, or my three year old coming up behind me gives me that sense of proximity recognition. It gives me more information about you. And that helps me be more empathetic. And it’s super interesting, right? Because we know that mental health issues are at an all time high. 75% of people, according to one study, are saying that they feel fatigued and stressed and socially isolated. And so that social connection is so critical as an antidote to that. So that may be the small group that you’re around, but it may also be anything you can do to reach out to others. Whether you’re on a video conference, whether you’re yelling across the call to speak to your neighbor, there’s even some really interesting research that suggests that things that are familiar can also feed some of that need for socializing. So you might watch an old TV show that just feels familiar to you or you’re listening to music that you’ve always loved. That familiarity tends to help us feel a little bit less stressed three times.


John Corcoran  20:24  

Now, you know, companies like zoom, which we’re using to record this right now have been going gangbusters just tremendous amounts of, of growth, you know, other, you know, software tools that allow people to work remotely. How do you think these companies are going to handle it when we can start going back to work? Maybe there’s a vaccine, maybe there’s, you know, a lessening of the virus or something like that, that enables us to go back, you know, our companies, our employees going to demand you know, I really like not having a 45 minute, one way commute on Want to work from home more days a week? Our company is going to be OK with that, because they’ve seen that it can work or what are your thoughts on all those different?


Dr. Tracy Brower  21:07  

I think it’s a I definitely think it’s a both and I’m spending almost my full time talking to companies about that exact question. So it’s a brilliant question. And I think we’re all trying to figure out the answer. One of the things I’m hearing from companies is that it’s a rare organization who believes they’ll go back to business as usual, even post vaccine, that what we’ve done is we’ve proven to ourselves that the barriers for working remotely might have been artificial, because we were all forced into it. And while it’s difficult today, what it has done is expanded our perception and understanding of what we can really do and what we can make work. And so I think we’re going to see increased flexibility in terms of work and in terms of choices. So you know, maybe people will have more opportunity to work from home on a Friday or to you know, work from home on a Monday morning or leave early on a Tuesday because they need to take their kid to soccer and God willing, we get to go to soccer again Sunday, and then you know, work from home later in the evening. So work flexibility will increase. That’s what we’re absolutely hearing in those choices. But the other thing I think we’re going to see is I think we may see actually a resurgence in terms of the office and more investment in the office, because I think the other thing that’s happened is that we might have taken the office for granted in the past, like, you know, we weren’t thinking very hard about it, because it was just something we did every day was out of the office. And now I think we’re saying to ourselves, Oh, my gosh, I miss it. I miss it for all these reasons. And I think that’s going to cause us to think really hard about what we really, really need to get done in the office and what are the ways that we can attract people to the office and be really planful about the processes that we can support from an office. We can work anywhere. But just because we can doesn’t mean we should, there’s something really special about face to face and the magic of coming together in a certain place.


John Corcoran  23:08  

Right? That’ll be interesting to see what develops from that because you had, you know, in the 90s, you had the cubicle culture, you know, you had office space, stuff like that, where, you know, cubicles were overrun, and people didn’t like it. Then you went to the other end of the spectrum where companies tore down all those walls, and you had the Open Office, but then it turns out, a lot of people are too crazy about that one either. So it’s eventually something, maybe it’s gonna be a happy medium. Maybe that’s all arrive on. And related to that point. Last one I want to ask you about in this article, he also talked about what you said, innovation will flourish, which I think is fascinating. I was watching a video the other day, about a 75-year-old company in New England that made wood shutters outside of homes. And they about two months ago pivoted to creating PP you know, protective devices for them. care workers. And then the video was about how they’re shifting back to their original thing that they were doing. But how innovative is that? You know, if you’d ask that company, they’ve been doing the same thing for 75 years, if you’d asked them three or four months ago, do you think you guys could pivot on a dime, and start producing some completely different product for a couple of months? They probably wouldn’t have believed it. But now imagine that confidence that they have emerged from that, and I think more and more companies are going to emerge with that when they know, it’s like, what that whole thing about what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger. I think they’re gonna be more companies gonna be feeling that way.


Dr. Tracy Brower  24:38  

Yeah, I love that point. I think this is actually really exciting. I think it was Winston Churchill that said, never waste a good crisis. You know, like, what happens in the natural growth curve of organizations is you start your organization and you’re in the garage with your, you know, sleeves rolled up and you’re figuring it out and you’re making it up as you go along. And you’re you know, putting things together with chewing gum and duct tape and paper clips for those of us who can remember MacGyver and you don’t have it figured out, and then you start to figure it out, and then you want to replicate it. And you want to get consistency. And so you develop systems and you look for hockey stick growth that is based on replicability and systems and consistency. And we call that bureaucracy when it goes really far. And I think what this has taught us is that all of a sudden out all those systems and a lot of cases got kind of blown apart. And so we were able to move really, really quickly. And we had to make some decisions and a whole new way. And some of those previous policies and practices which were put in place for all the right reasons, were really reinvented because we needed to do things differently. And I think that gives us a really interesting opportunity to think differently about everything that we do. The other thing that I think is really exciting is that innovation is Best with the most barriers, like when you don’t have any barriers and anything goes, you can be slightly innovative, but you don’t have to work too hard at being innovative. And a lot of times when the barriers are most significant is when we have to be the most creative. That is when we figure things out that we never would have figured out before. And so I think that is the opportunity to really tap that kind of innovation. And one of the other things I wrote about is the opportunity for career opportunities, which seems really counterintuitive. I know with unemployment higher than it’s been in decades. But what tends to happen is we tend to shift the swim lanes of roles and responsibilities in times like these, and that can give us new opportunities to stretch. So if every company is a startup company, and they’re figuring it out in new ways, and they’re innovating in new ways, they are going to need that entrepreneurial skill set. skill set of people who are figuring it out and making it up and finding new ways. And so I think that is our opportunity, again, not to be Pollyanna, but to think about, gosh, where might we be able to go? And where might we be able to reimagine and reinvent.


John Corcoran  27:16  

I love that positivity. Any final thoughts on ways in which you see work changing and ways in which companies are going to be bringing life back to work in the months and years ahead?


Dr. Tracy Brower  27:30  

You know, I think it is going to be all about both the people and the business. Like I always like to say when you do the right thing for people, the right thing for the business happens as well. And we’re in this really interesting time where the supply and demand has shifted, pre pandemic, there was a shortage of talent. And so talent had the power and companies were doing everything they could to attract and retain. With unemployment as high as it is. We’re going to go back to a situation where companies have more of that power because everybody needs a job. And this is going to be a moment of truth for companies to do the right thing to make sure that they’re taking constructive productive approaches to make sure that they’re focusing on integrity and the right kinds of corporate values. Because the power shifts will change again, and the companies who have done the right thing by people and by their business and have been able to balance those will surely be the ones that are coming out on top and differentiating. So really, really good things to come. We all hope.


John Corcoran  28:30  

That’s great. All right. Well, I want to wrap things up with a question I was asked which let’s pretend we’re in an awards banquet, much like the Oscars and the Emmys. We’re all sitting socially distance six feet apart, of course, at that awards banquet, but you’re walking up to the podium to receive an award for lifetime achievement for everything you’ve done up until this point, and who do you think are the people that you acknowledge in your remarks? And it’s just a family friend? Of course.


Dr. Tracy Brower  28:52  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course, family and friends are really, really critical. You know, it’s that first debate coach that told me Tracy, she said, you know, even if you don’t have anything to say you can sound really good when you’re saying it. So God bless her She


John Corcoran  29:09  

sounds like a little backhanded compliment, I guess.


Dr. Tracy Brower  29:14  

It’s for some reason it’s stuck with me or it’s that, or it’s their career counselor in college who kind of whispered to me and asked me to, you know, come to her office after she overheard a conversation and said, Tracy, what you’re interested in is called XYZ in a company. And so she was able to kind of guide me and direct me and I’ve just had some amazing leaders over time who have been so oriented toward learning and toward advocating for me and really, I have been able to be really authentic and so I’ve learned so much from them.


John Corcoran  29:46  

It’s great bringing work to life by bringing life to work. tracybrower.com is your website. I know you have some exciting projects, not ready to announce them yet, but on the horizon, so we’re going to be hearing more from you. Where can people go to connect with you and learn more about you?


Dr. Tracy Brower  30:03  

Well, they can go to my website tracybrower.com and I work for Steelcase, which is an amazing organization. So steelcase.com has tons of resources in terms of returning to work and kind of the, the new way that we need to think about supporting work from an office standpoint and a work experience standpoint. Excellent. All right, Tracy, thanks so much. Thank you. I appreciate it.


Intro  30:26  

Thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution podcast with John Corcoran. Find out more at smartbusinessrevolution.com. And while you’re there, sign up for our email list and join the Revolution, and be listening for the next episode of the Smart Business Revolution podcast.

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