Andrea Heuston is the CEO and Creative Principal of Artitudes Design, an award-winning creative agency. She has over 20 years experience in the design industry and has won several awards including Puget Sound Business Journal’s 40 Under 40, the annual Enterprising Women of the Year Awards for Enterprising Women Magazine, Cambridge Who’s Who for Women Achieve Award and many more.
Andrea has a degree in Communications and Design from the University of Washington. In addition to being an entrepreneur, she’s also a speaker, author and a volunteer with a number of local community nonprofits. She’s also the host of the Lead Like a Woman Show, where she features top women leaders who share their inspirational stories on life and leadership.
John Corcoran, host of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast, is joined by Andrea Heuston, CEO and Creative Principal of Artitudes Design, on this episode to talk about surviving, thriving, and pivoting your business during difficult times. They also discuss how the current health pandemic has impacted women in leadership and entrepreneurship, and Andrea also shares her best practices for virtual events.
Here’s a Glimpse of What You’ll Hear:
- What hosting the Lead Like a Woman Show means for Andrea Heuston and what it has done for her business
- How the current health pandemic is affecting women in leadership and entrepreneurship
- Andrea talks about how the Covid-19 pandemic has affected her business and how she has pivoted since then
- How some organizations have combined physical and virtual events
- Andrea’s best practices for virtual events
- What Andrea does to maintain her positivity going during difficult times and how her business was affected by the 9/11 and 2008 financial crisis
- The roles that the Entrepreneurs’ Organization and Women Presidents Organization have played in Andrea’s business during the current health pandemic
- The people Andrea acknowledges for her success and achievements
- Where to learn more about Andrea Heuston
Resources Mentioned:
- Artitudes Design
- Lead Like a Woman Show
- Andrea Heuston on LinkedIn
- Andrea Heuston’s Free Zoom Backgrounds
- John Corcoran’s interview with Andrea Herrera
- Entrepreneurs’ Organization (EO)
- Women Presidents’ Organization (WPO)
- Goldman Sachs 10,000 Small Businesses Program
- Apprentice
- Carrie Searing on LinkedIn
Sponsor: Rise25
Today’s episode is sponsored by Rise25 Media, where our mission is to connect you with your best referral partners, clients, and strategic partners. We do this through our done for you business podcast solution and content marketing.
Along with my business partner Dr. Jeremy Weisz, we have over 18 years of experience with B2B podcasting, which is one of the best things you can do for your business and you personally.
If you do it right, a podcast is like a “Swiss Army Knife” – it is a tool that accomplishes many things at once. It can and will lead to great ROI, great clients, referrals, strategic partnerships, and more. It is networking and business development; and it is personal and professional development which doubles as content marketing.
A podcast is the highest and best use of your time and will save you time by connecting you to higher caliber people to uplevel your network.
To learn more, go to Rise25.com or email us at [email protected].
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Check out Rise25 to learn more about our done-for-you lead generation and done-for-you podcast services.
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Episode Transcript
Intro 0:14
Welcome to the Revolution, the Smart Business Revolution Podcast, where we asked today’s most successful entrepreneur to share the tools and strategies they use to build relationships and connections to grow their revenue. Now, your host for the revolution. John Corcoran.
John Corcoran 0:40
All right. Welcome, everyone. John Corcoran. Here. I’m the host of the Smart Business Revolution podcast. And if you’ve been listening for a while, you know that every week I’m talking to really smart, cunning, strategic CEOs, founders and entrepreneurs of all kinds of companies and organizations like YPO Activision Blizzard lending tree, Open Table. Like software and many more, I’m also the co-founder of Rise25, where you help connect b2b business owners to their ideal prospects. And first before we get started, I want to give a big shout out to Alex lovak of across deck and darkwood, also of EO entrepreneurs organization in San Francisco who introduced us to our wonderful guest, who is Andrea Heuston. She’s the CEO and Creative Principal of Artitudes Design, an award winning creative agency. She has over 20 years experience in the design industry won several awards, including Puget Sound Business Journal’s 40 Under 40, the annual Enterprising Women of the Year awards for Enterprising Women Magazine, Cambridge Who’s Who for Women Achieve award and many more. She has a degree in communications and design from the University of Washington. In addition to being an entrepreneur, she’s also a speaker and author and a volunteer with a number of local community nonprofits. She’s also the host of the Lead Like a Woman Show, which our team at Rise25 Media were very privileged to help her launch and manage.
And first before we get into this interview, this episode is brought to you by Rise25 Media. Look, I don’t need to tell you the world has changed. We all know that. The next question is what do you do about it and in this economy, it’s more important than ever to be able to connect and build strong relationships with clients, referral partners, strategic partners, even and especially when you can’t be face to face to face. So at Rise25, we have 20 years of experience in the b2b space connecting and building profitable relationships with clients and strategic partners using a podcast. You can and should be doing this too. We’ve helped hundreds of b2b businesses to get more clients and referrals and link collaborations with dream clients. To learn more, go to rise25media.com or email us at [email protected]
Andrea, you’ve done an amazing job with your podcast. So let’s just start right there. I want to hear about what it has meant for you, the Lead Like a Woman Show, you know what it has done for your business. And I know you’ve just really liked to follow through and you’ve connected with some amazing people. We’ll talk a little about what you’ve been covering on the show, and what people can expect there.
Andrea Heuston 3:08
Sure, thanks for the great introduction, John, I appreciate it. I’m excited to be here. And I love Rise25, you guys have helped ease my way into the podcast world and launch it with a little bit of power. So I really appreciate that. So I know the lead like a woman show, and I interview female leaders who are empowering others. Really the goal is to help women rise. And what that means for me is key conversations with women who are either in leadership positions or will strive to be in leadership positions, or who’ve done something different in the world that we can share with others for inspiration and aspiration. People that I’ve interviewed there’s so many good ones so far. This week, I’m interviewing Andrea Herrera of box perience amazing edibles out of Chicago. I recently interviewed Kristin. She’s an HR expert at San Diego. Alex low back is on my list to you just talked about. She’s a friend of mine. She’s in the San Francisco Bay Area and Texas with her company. Just lots of powerful women who have been able to create value for other people and especially other women, and I love what we’re doing. My passion in life is to help other women. Women have been maligned for many, many, many moons say centuries. And I think it’s important for everyone to be a feminist First of all, everyone, male, female, non binary, whatever, to be a feminist because really, when women are empowered, the whole world is empowered and we’re in a better place.
John Corcoran 4:50
Yeah. I want to ask you since we’re on this topic before we hop into talking about some other topics, but on the topic of women and particularly women in leadership and, and entrepreneurship. You know, this is such an unusual time. We’re recording this in July of 2020, on the heels of the metoo movement, which was groundbreaking in so many different ways. And then you have the pandemic, which I’ve heard some people say that, you know, it’s going to be a big step backward for a lot of women, for the reasons that, you know, a lot of housework falls on them. And so, you know, it’s just a lot of women maybe leaving the workforce or having to shut down their business. What are your thoughts at this moment in time on how these two singular events in the last couple of years are going to affect women and women who want to be leaders and, and be entrepreneurs?
Andrea Heuston 5:45
So I’m a glass half full or overflowing type of a person. So I believe this is an incredible opportunity in our history right now, as we’re making history for other reasons. I mean, there’s a global plague going on. I know it’s pandemic. I’m calling it a plague at the moment. And women have been thrust back into some roles that they’ve always had or always been targeted as just because of gender roles and gender biases that have run deep all within our DNA as a matter of fact, because you live what you learn, and you learn what you live. And so women are the caretakers of the family, women are the cooks and the cleaners and now they’re thrust into the role of homeschooling as well and entertainment directors. And there’s so many things that women do, I call it the mom load as well. Because in our heads, even if we have a partner, an amazing individual who can help us out with everything, and really lift their share of the load on an ongoing basis, even if it feels 5050 it isn’t because women in their brains are going I forgot to call the dentist for my son today. Oh, my daughter has a test next week. I think about that. Oh crap, I forgot to put my son’s lacrosse gear into the dryer. What’s he going to do? These things run in our heads and Whether we have a partner who helps us out or not, they’re still there. So it’s called the mom lode. And I think we’re at an inflection point in a lot of ways. Because there’s been studies out of one that I’ve read recently, and it was fascinating. That said, even the men think they’re doing more than they actually are. So there’s been some interviews and some studies done about this load and this workload, and men are like, no, I carry 50% of the burden. I’m getting the kids out of bed in the morning, I’m helping set them up on zoom. But it’s not everything. And there’s no way we can get out of our heads, everything that needs that needs help. So what we really are looking at as an opportunity is for men to take it to take it away from us, and to realize that they can have that same level of load. So we’re at a point of opportunity right now, where we can either fall back into those traditional gender roles, which some women love and I think that’s great. menlove that too. But we’re also at this point where we have the opportunity to move forward in a super positive way, and have people bear an equal share of a burden. Now it’s all about communication and talking about it and learning about what’s going on with that burden. And how we can divide it up in such a way that feels less burdensome.
John Corcoran 8:24
Now, you have a unique perspective, having run your business for many years. Let’s, let’s jump backwards in time, about four months now to March when this global plague hit all of us. Take us back to what that was, like, you know, in those early days when, you know the news was coming at us really fast. Did you see this having a major impact on your business right away? Or did you anticipate that it would and when did you feel like Oh, man, this is gonna require me to make some big changes and shifts.
Andrea Heuston 8:59
So I live in the Seattle area and I’ve run my business here for 25 years and our clients are in the fortune 100 sector. Usually we have a number of clients, buy bulk of what we do is with C suite executives in the fortune 100. And that said, our event worked. So we do a lot of event work, where we will help coach speakers and write their speeches and create all the visuals on the screen behind them, be it a PowerPoint presentation, a personal branding, a demo or motion graphics. And these are presentations for 20 to 50,000 people in the audience. And when this started happening, my first thought was, oh, it’ll be over by June July. our busiest months of the year will be fine. Because our Microsoft show season runs June July. We have Cisco in August. We have Tableau later on in September. So things run for quite a while for us. But by May every single one of those companies have shifted to a virtual program instead of doing things in front of a live audience, and for safety sake, I think that’s wonderful. But I thought 35% would come off my top line immediately. So we had open pios. That just started closing because they didn’t need our services in the same way. And that’s hard. It’s hard when you’re supporting a small business. We have been on an upswing for the last three years, because we have been in the dumps. I had an employee die three and a half years ago, who ran 85% of the clients. And in that time, he was also a friend, and a neighbor and my employee for nine years and I fell into depression and didn’t do anything about it. So we lost $600,000 in a year. So we were climbing out of that hole and had really good revenue numbers for this year and projections for this number of women COVID hits and I had to reset but not only reset, but also come up with new ways of looking at things To see where we could bring revenue. Yeah, our live event business is just slim to none right now pivoted to do a lot of different things now. So it’s good and the revenues are coming in.
John Corcoran 11:12
I just talk about that pivot process. Oh, what did you do? You recently interviewed Andrea Herrera out of Chicago, who I also interviewed recently from box perience. She had an amazing story, those of you who are listening, you’ll check out that episode as well, because she had a $3 million a year catering business and knocked down to 5% or so of what it expected to be. And so she pivoted to this much different business. What did you know, did you? It seems like maybe kind of natural going from live events to virtual events. But did you evaluate a lot of different ideas? Did you talk to different people? How did you figure out how you’re going to change your services?
Andrea Heuston 11:55
And we’ve been talking to everybody and their brother and sister seriously. So, being that we’ve been in the industry we’ve been in for many, many years, I would say 15 years ago, we set ourselves on a path to be the live event design specialists, which really means all sorts of different pieces. But we never worked in virtual events. This was a brand new arena for us. And we had never, ever done a virtual. And a virtual event from what we’ve learned from experience cannot look anything like a live event. There are no one hour keynote speeches, because really, you have somebody doing a one hour keynote on a zoom meeting or some of the other platforms that are out there that we use, and everybody’s tuned out. They are looking at their phones, they turn their camera off, they’re talking to their kids. They’re checking email, they’re even playing solitaire on their computer or something because they can’t stay engaged. Yeah. So what we learned is we need snackable content, we need to really get the content down. People say 25 to 30 minutes max for a talking head. 12 and a half minutes, and you have to mix it up. You have to look at things like attention span, but you have to look at things like energy too. So when you’re a speaker in a room, you can read the energy in the room. I mean, even if it’s 50,000 people in a room, you can hear the chatter, you can watch people look at their phones, you can’t do that in a virtual meeting. So instead, you have to create this false sense of energy in some ways. And by doing that, it creates real energy. So you do polls, you do moderated chat, you do q&a, and you plug it in every 12 and a half 10 to 12 and a half minutes, so it keeps the energy up. So there’s been some interesting learnings for us. I had a client come to me in April and say, we want to do a live event for 1000 people on June 24. And I said, it’s not going to happen. And that’s not usually how I run my business. I don’t usually say that to a client. But they said no, our CEO says we must do this on June 24. And it will be live. So tell you what, let’s create a proposal for a live event. And let’s create a proposal. That’s not a live effect. And I have some ideas around that. So to do a live event in June in the Seattle area, it looks like even if we were at phase three, that would mean 50 people or less in one space. If you have 30 people as crew, you get 20 people in the audience. So think of that if we have 1000 people that we need to have in the audience, and you get 20 at a time, we have a lot of events going on at a time. So instead of creating 50 different events to reach 1000 people, the client agreed to do this snackable content approach and said we’re creating 700 minutes, a video that’s rolling out in a seasonal way. So there’s season one with episodes one through three, season two without episodes one through seven, and then season three with a number of episodes as well. And each one is a three to seven minute video that people can watch on their own time. Get the information that they need to get in. So it’s a very, very different approach to an event. Even though this is not an event, instead, it becomes content that’s evergreen, and content that they can use in many different ways. So it’s fun to reimagine some of the stuff. We’re doing another live event.
John Corcoran 15:22
Yeah, it’s innovative. It’s interesting. It’s interesting, just to even over four months to see some of the evolution and changes. It was kind of like, you know, in the first few months, it was like, Oh, do virtual events do exactly the same except over zoom. You know, very quickly, people learned that that didn’t work very well. You know, one interesting one I want to ask you about is some organizations eo included, which you’re involved in San Francisco, are in Seattle have come combined the physical and the virtual. So eo San Francisco had a gala event where they shipped food and food and And an alcohol and everything and had a gala where they had instruction in your in your kitchen like making the food with everyone else at the same time, or I’m doing an event for you actually this this Wednesday, where they mailed us a box that had a cocktail making kit and we’re gonna have a mixologist who comes in and midway through there. So talk a little bit about that learning. Have you been involved in any events that have done that sort of thing?
Andrea Heuston 16:27
Oh, definitely. We’re seeing a lot of that through eo I’m also part of WP o the women presidents organization, and we have our virtual summit this week. It’s always been in person, always done the conference in person. This week. It’s not and they’ve already sent us stuff. I can’t wait to open it but you’re not supposed to open everything until the whole program starts. Now one of our clients, we’re working with them for a virtual event in August and it usually is a two day event we did in Chicago last year at the Navy Pier, which was an amazing venue for an event. It’s high end. It’s experiential, because these are distributors of their product. And they really want them to buy in. So they show them all the new product, they talk about the new product, they give them cool experiences. So this time we’re doing it virtually. And we’re going to do it in a broadcast style, almost like a TV news studio, where we do snackable content, and then something else QA and then more content. So they show videos, they do moderated QA, everything like that, and then we’re sending them an experience. So I’m not exactly sure what that looks like yet. But there will be wine and wine pairings, there will be something that they can interact with. And it’ll all happen within the construct of the virtual event. So not only are you an attendee at an event, but you’re part of it, the best events, engage all the senses, and it’s harder to do a virtual setting, but those who can figure out how to do it and we’re working hard to do that. We’ll get The most engagement from the audience.
John Corcoran 18:01
Yeah. Any other best practices that you’ve seen people engaging in, like, for example, taking larger groups and breaking them up into smaller groups and having them discussed something, you know, I think that’s a, I think that’s a good model. Anything else any other best practices, you’ve seen
Andrea Heuston 18:18
this. So that’s one of the best models, I think, that I’ve seen as well. The other thing that we’ve done in that kind of thing with breakouts and I was a speaker for 200 women recently doing a webinar for women on how to really get by in this virtual world in business because it’s entirely different than it was before. And I spoke for a few minutes and then we broke everybody up. And they each separately had a question and every single breakout so they were all different questions, and then we came back to discuss and not only was either one discussing it because I arranged the exercise, but we had a moderator as well, so that it didn’t get overwhelming. One of the other things that’s fun to do is a poll, so you can pull up People in the middle of a speech or some sort of interactivity, because then they can come in and go, Oh, yeah, I gotta pay attention to this. So if you tell them, you know, in 10 minutes, it’s not a test, there’s going to be a poll and we’re going to want some of your feedback, they’re more likely to pay attention.
John Corcoran 19:18
Yeah, definitely. Um, I want to ask you about you mentioned earlier that your a glass is half full, or a glasses, overflowing type of personality, I tend to be the same way, you know, I really try to look through life at the positive things and there’s, you know, there are different practices that I have in order to try and maintain that it’s not always easy, especially this year. But what do you do in order to keep that positivity, positivity? You know, at times like when, you know, your trusted employee dies or a global plague is, you know, hitting all of us.
Andrea Heuston 19:59
So, to give a snippet of background, I was in a coma 12 years ago. So I have four before and after in my life. The first was in fertility treatments and then adopting our children from a drug addicted birth mother. My second was a coma for 19 days and the recovery that took almost a year. The third was my house burning down and having to escape the house with my children. And then, yeah, and then the fourth was my
John Corcoran 20:23
mother. Yeah, the pandemic yet.
Andrea Heuston 20:27
My fourth employee died. And
Unknown Speaker 20:29
then there’s five now.
Andrea Heuston 20:31
Well, there could be six. I mean, my business lives for 911 and the financial crisis of 2008. So there’s been a lot. So I could either wallow in self pity, or choose to be a victim and I not. I’m one of those people who chooses not to be a victim. I’d rather take responsibility for my own actions. But one thing I do every day to set my tone is I have gratitude practice. And it’s first thing in the morning, and sometimes it looks like right before I get out of bed, I name things in my head that I’m grateful for. Sometimes it’s during my morning walk. Sometimes it’s while I’m drinking my coffee and I’ll write them down. But generally speaking, I spent 10 to 15 minutes in gratitude every single day. The other thing I do is I like to read quotes, I have a different quote every day. And I look at different ones today. My quote is I am deliberate and afraid of nothing. So it’s a mindset, and it’s something that I do consciously on a daily basis to keep that positive mindset. I also really honestly think it sounds a little Marisa Miss Mary sunshine or something, but I’m above ground. I have not been so every day is a good day.
John Corcoran 21:41
I love that. reflect back for me on your mentioned 911 2008 financial crisis. You know, what, what was your business? What did your business go through then? And then I want to ask you about how the decisions you made now are influenced by them, but talk about to me about what you were like for your business going through those experiences.
Andrea Heuston 22:03
So 911 I was a brand new mom, I had a two month old baby. He’s now 19. And I was freelancing and contracting is what I was doing. I was a sole proprietor. I didn’t have employees yet at the time. But all my work dried up, I had a brand new baby, we were building a brand new house, because the house we were in, didn’t have enough room for a family. And all of a sudden, there’s no work and I was the breadwinner at the time. So it was incredibly difficult. And I had to then be of the mindset that I take anything that comes my way. And I did what I’ve had to do that a few times, where we have a niche of what we do, but like after the financial crisis, which really hit the Seattle area in 2009, which was good because I was in a coma at eight. But with that happening, I had to lay people off. And then we had to change the tip of our spear to change what we did in order to stay afloat. And that When we decided we weren’t just going to do PowerPoint design anymore, we were going to get into motion graphics that we were going to get into other event graphics, which was able to expand our business footprint in a really big way. So I’m looking at this COVID thing plague right now is an opportunity to do something new and exciting with my business and we have some ideas percolating right now that we’re really excited about
John Corcoran 23:24
and did you make decisions quicker when this hit because of that? Yes, you did. Like what? Tell me some stories.
Andrea Heuston 23:32
So I actually didn’t have to lay anybody off but my decisions around events were okay. I have seven trips planned and we have this many live events with everybody are planning to cancel them now. I need to get the money back on flights. I need to get the money back on hotels. If you know, not just looking at Oh, wait, that’s down the line a bit. It’ll be okay. Nope. We’re gonna make decisions now. And then if we need to go back and read books the clients are gonna pay for it anyway. So there was some of that going on. But there was also Where can I get the most help? I know, I’m not in a silo. I love to talk to people and get ideas. And so I blatantly asked for help. I was part of this thing called catalogued. And it’s the Harvard MBAs helping businesses and COVID-19. And I had just finished the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small businesses program, which was amazing for my company. But during the pandemic, they pivoted for three weeks of content on how to get the PPP loan, how to go after funding, how to pivot your business, which was very, very valuable. But coming out of that I got this opportunity for these MBA students. And all I had to do is prove I was a small business, upload a project and students would grab my project and go with it. So I had two MBA students for eight weeks, who created a new line of business for me, and now we’re implementing
John Corcoran 24:59
Wow, that’s really cool. I just heard from another someone we both know who beat me groceries told me about chooseapprentice.com, which is you hire apprentices. I think it’s like two grand for 25 hours a week or something like that they’re mostly college students, but you know, young and eager, young, scrappy and hungry kind of thing. Yeah. Talk about talk to me about the impact that your eo Forum has had, of course, you know, we respect confidentiality, but, you know, talk a little bit about what, how that has helped you this time through in terms of, for those who don’t know, the basic, you know, format of eo is you’re in a small group forum with peers, six to 12 peers or so. And it’s the opportunity to meet with other CEOs, business owners and exchange ideas. So what role did that play for you during this time period?
Andrea Heuston 25:53
So for this one, my eo forum family has really been supportive and we’ve been supportive of each other and I’ve learned that even if I don’t have an issue that needs to be processed or something, some problem I need help with to solve. I can learn just as much by listening to other people. And that’s really what it’s been about for me this time. But also, I believe that my positivity has helped other people and reflects on me. So if I ever feel a little bit low, that’s the place I can share it with, and bring myself back up. I’m also a member of WPO, Women Presidents Organization, and that group has been incredible during this time, both my eo forum and WTO, we’ve created something where we used to meet just once a month, and now we’re meeting every single week. So I have a lunch hour with my forum every week where we can just bounce ideas off of each other and have that same thing. I have a happy hour with WP o so we can do the same thing. And there’s the women of you where we’re doing a weekly happy hour as well, with just the females in our chapter, which has been really valuable. It’s been good practice. Assessing.
John Corcoran 27:01
Yeah, that’s great. Well, this has been great. Andrea, I want to wrap things up with a question I always ask, which is let’s pretend we’re at an awards banquet, much like the Oscars or the Emmys and you’re receiving an award for lifetime achievement for everything you’ve done up until this point. And what we want to know is, who do you think who are the mentors were the coaches who are the friends or the business partners or the for mates, who you would acknowledge in your remarks?
Andrea Heuston 27:26
Without brown nosing, I’m gonna thank Rise25 because you guys rock and I’m having a lot of fun with that. So I’m gonna be
John Corcoran 27:31
honest. Awesome. Thank you.
Andrea Heuston 27:34
I would think my husband Eric, who’s been incredibly supportive. We’ve been married for 26 years next month, and he’s been really, really supportive. I would thank Carrie Searing who is my assistant and my operations manager at my office and has been with me, so she was my older son’s summer nanny 810 years ago. And she started with the company 14 years ago, and she’s been with me ever since. So definitely. thank her. Other people I think is my best friend from Denmark who lives in England cleanouts and might do for mates. My eo board mates, I’m on the board for the third time in a year or third time, not in a year, third year in a row. And then probably my other women have eo and WPA, who I really really like to bounce ideas off of because they’re not ideas that just bounce off and go into the effort we discuss them and work on them and figure out the best way for it. I’m sure there’s other people I’ve missed but I’m not Sally Field yet spend 20 minutes on this part.
John Corcoran 28:38
Exactly. Then we’re gonna share I’ll come up well, this is a great way to tell everyone where they can go learn more about you.
Andrea Heuston 28:44
Go to leadlikeawoman.biz or artitudesdesign.com
John Corcoran 28:51
Great. All right. And you have free zoom backdrops, I believe. That’s cool.
Andrea Heuston 28:56
We do have free zoom backdrops. I actually did some for Rise25 as well. But during the pivot, we decided to do that for our clients. And then for our Microsoft clients who don’t use zoom, we gave him free email signatures.
John Corcoran 29:09
So nice.
Andrea Heuston 29:11
We do that kind of thing. That’s a lot of fun. But if you need a free zoom background, go to artitudesdesign.com and click on virtual events.
John Corcoran 29:17
smart idea. Thanks so much.
Unknown Speaker 29:21
Thanks, John.
Outro 29:23
Thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution podcast with John Corcoran. Find out more at smartbusinessrevolution.com and while you’re there, sign up for our email list and join the revolution. And be listening for the next episode of the Smart Business Revolution podcast.