John Corcoran 13:36
Yeah, it’s interesting that a similar experience went to an affluent High School and was driving the price of the crappiest car in the entire parking lot. And you see that kind of thing with other kids that have handed a brand new vehicle when they’re 16 years old. And, you know, you can rack different ways to that sort of thing you can it can build resentment, you know, in you, or you can also motivate you to do something about it. Yeah,
Rich Walker 14:03
I remember I, my mom took us on a trip my freshman year, she’s like, this is the last time I’m gonna take my kids on a big trip like this. So let’s go into Puerto Vallarta. But I’m sitting at the airport, I happen to sit next to a guy and his his wife. He’s a Trojan. And he finds out I’m a student there. He hands me his card after a five-minute conversation. Like if you want an internship, just give me a call when you get back. I’m like, What is this place? It’s amazing.
John Corcoran 14:28
Yeah, I mean, it’s certainly an amazing network and that there’s something to be said for that for sure. You met your mentor you mentioned earlier at 16 years old. So this is before you go off to SC I believe when you’re still in high school.
Rich Walker 14:43
How did that come about? Yeah, so my mom took a job at an IBM subsidiary. His name is Steve Fazio and Steve became friends with my mom and he was interested in youth. I mean, I think he really cared about how people were growing. playing. So he kind of took me under his wing from time to time, and we would talk about things. And some of them were really tough things like how friendships are going to break. And he had boys, so he understood how boys were growing, et cetera. So he really became my mentor when I was when I went to college. And it started, I think, because he formed an internship program and his subsidiary, and employed, I think, eight to 10 college students. I was among the youngest, but not Not, not the only one who was just entering school. And so I got an internship for the summer before I went to USC, which was amazing. And I got to sit in on his executive meetings and see what the executive room was like, you know, and he was this tough Italian New Yorker. And I watched him just tear into people. And I don’t mean like, maliciously, but like, from a business standpoint, how to get things done, how to hold people accountable. And then I watched him praise people for their efforts and what they were doing, and he might look at somebody and say, you know, you have good analysis, but you came to the wrong conclusion, but you did a good job trying to get there. And I learned so much from those types of interactions working with him at that place. And we we built such a bond that he became my mentor through college. And that was really amazing to me, because I didn’t have a very strong father figure, especially from a business standpoint. My father was a minister, who then became a drug addict alcoholic, who then became a substance abuse counselor. And I love my dad, I love what he’s done. But that was never my path. My stepfather, my parents divorced when I was 16. I certainly don’t like hospitality business. So that wasn’t going to be my path. But nobody was this business person. And so here I meet Steve is this just Paramount business person. I mean, he ran, I think the business development and planning for all of IBM Global, the guy knew his stuff. So I would run business ideas with him, I would talk about how things work, but also just life things that he helped me understand. So he would take me to dinners. I learned how to dress. He actually bought me my first suit when I graduated college, took me to Brooks Brothers, he’s buying me one suit, the suit will last year for 10 years. And I’m going to teach you the difference between quantity versus quality. So I mean, there were just so many profound lessons that he gave me coming with this really poor background, and not knowing a lot about the world. And seeing things. I mean, even to the point of like, we would watch somebody walked through the door, and he said, did you notice why that person opened the door for that person. And we were talking about body language and how people carry themselves. So it just was really, really amazing for me. And by the way, I had the internship the second summer to where I went, first year, I was an engineering, I saw what software was like, and I said, I’ll never do software. I couldn’t ever be a software developer. And the second summer I worked in marketing, and I did market research, and I fell in love with marketing and product and fit in product placement, all those things. But yeah, Steve, Steve was really profound impact on me as I was going through college, and then figuring out what I wanted to do. And if you don’t mind, I’ll finish the story when he asked me like, What do you want to do when you graduate? And I told him, I wanted to be an entrepreneur and start a business. He was like, Okay, well, let’s start over here. What are you going to do the day you graduate? I’m like, I want to start a business. He’s like, if you don’t have one, how are you going to start one? He said, If you told me that you wanted to do something really mundane and boring. Like if you said you wanted to make new sugar packets for coffee, like I could get behind that. I can help you figure out how to distribute that I could help you how to package it, like but having no idea means nothing. So I said How about how about you go find a job. And if you have a business to start by the time you graduate, don’t take the job. But if you don’t have a business, you have a job. That’s what led me to Arthur Andersen and I actually secured my job at Arthur Andersen before Thanksgiving of my senior year, which meant my whole senior year was easier like less stress. When I graduated, I went to work there and I mentored I learned a lot about business working at Arthur Andersen.
John Corcoran 18:59
So were you there through the Arthur Andersen so they got caught up in kind of the Enron scandal of Enron. Yeah. Were you there through that period?
Rich Walker 19:09
No, I left about two years prior to that happening or coming to light I guess I’m not sure when it exactly happened. But certainly I had friends who are still there, I watched the terrible destruction of an amazing company based on that event. And that also taught me a lot of business because when you think about limited liability partnership, the whole idea is to limit the liability to the partner who’s screwing up but the whole company suffered for what happened in one office or a couple of offices. And that was terrible to me, my friends. They did fine. But no, I was there for three years after graduation until 99. And then went on to the next thing. It was
John Corcoran 19:49
amazing to see you know, such an iconic company get taken down was any other lessons from that and ways in which you’ve you built your career or your company? knees reflecting on, you know,
Rich Walker 20:03
that experience, you know, not not the fact that they fell apart. But I want to tell you something I did when I was at Arthur Andersen that really helped me start my company. And I was just telling my team about this yesterday, I believe in asking yourself questions to motivate your own behavior and to help yourself grow. And frankly, I wasn’t happy at Arthur Andersen coming around year two, so I was trying to figure out what I was going to do. And I did not have a business idea. So every day I woke up, I said to myself, What am I going to learn today? That’s going to help me start a business tomorrow. And doing that kind of changed my entire perspective and how I was approaching problem-solving. And actually the, the mundane work I didn’t like doing at the job. So for example, I sat in the IT office of a large company, I have to leave them nameless, but you’d know who they are. Because we were working with them to do tracking of assets, you know, their computers and whatever. I saw this diagram on the board a big circle with different spokes coming off. And I said, I’m not allowed to ask you this. But can you tell me what that is? And he described to me the concept of publishing and subscribing. So we do this with magazines, you subscribe to a magazine when they publish an edition you get it? What about data? Well think about this, an employee comes in a brand new employee, you got to give them security badge, telephone computer access to information, like if they’re in sales, they need the sales, you know, Dropbox folder, whatever it might be? Well, what happens is that person comes in, they fill out a bunch of HR forms, you send them to security, they fill out security forms, they fill out forms everywhere, and everybody has pieces of data without sharing it. You said, what if we could just get their data in one place? publish it to the people who are subscribed to it for the pieces of data they want? I’m like, wow, that’s really interesting. I filed it away. Years later, I start my forms business. Well, what is the forum’s business? Do? We go out to the industry and we collect forms across the industry. So we have fidelity forms and mass mutual and Oppenheimer and Putnam, et cetera, we have 38,000 forms, nobody wants all of them, but they want to subscribe to the ones they want. And when new versions come out, we publish them and they get them automatically. So that whole publish subscribe model was was coming from that experience at Arthur Andersen for that 120 minute conversation that I had, which I credit to that question of like, what am I going to learn today? That’s going to help me start my business tomorrow.
John Corcoran 22:21
That’s great. Before we move on to talking about founding your business with your mentor, I want to ask you about that in the early days of your relationship with him. Because, you know, a lot of people are curious about how to find mentors and how to inspire them in a sense to take you under their wing. And it’s it’s not easy in today’s busy day and age, to get successful, accomplished people to do that. You spoke a lot about what he did for you. But I imagine if you reflect on how you were in that period of time, there were things that you did for him, that made him motivated to want to invest that amount of time and energy in you. Can you reflect on some of the things that you did?
Rich Walker 23:10
You know, I one thing that comes to mind that I’m remembering is something he said to me. So at the end of the summer, we were giving presentations of what we did. And I got up and gave my presentation. And I I didn’t sit through most of the other presentations for some reason I can’t remember. And then the next day when most of the other presentations took place from the other interns. I wasn’t there. I think I was sick. I just wasn’t there. And when I came back to the office, he sat me down in his office, he pulled me aside he said, Look, I want you to understand something that is different here. So you got up and talked about what you did with such enthusiasm, excitement, and true interest in what you’re doing. Everybody else got up and complained about the internship, they complained that things weren’t good enough. They complain that they didn’t have enough time they did. They just complained. And he said this is something that he wants to see more of. So like I’m not saying that did anything for him. But I think what, maybe maybe I reminded him of what’s possible, in some ways, because I didn’t come into this with anything. But oh my gosh, amazing opportunity. I’ve had nothing. This is amazing. These other kids were privileged and coming up with like, Oh, this isn’t good enough. I didn’t get paid enough. I was like, wow, this is amazing. And I think, you know, I think that internship because that was freshman year. I think that was part of why he mentored me, because he wanted to help encourage that growth. And that. I guess that exuberance. Yeah.
John Corcoran 24:36
So tell me so you at 26 years old, you end up going into business with your mentor. That’s unusual. How did that come about?
Rich Walker 24:45
So I left Arthur Andersen to become a consultant that was more independent, and I ended up working for a client that was a.com roller coaster. So back in the year 2000, they had raised $15 million As and then spent 18 million and you can do the math, you just can’t keep going. And I was part of that for the last stage like the last nine months of it, not the first nine months. And I came out of that with some interesting relationships. One was with a lawyer in Los Angeles, who was kind of a lawyer to a bunch of different entrepreneurial startups. And he called me he’s like, Rich, I know you’re a free agent. Now. I’ve got three startups that all need a CTO, you choose which one you want to be the CTO for, and let’s go. Well, at that point, I was just so excited about being an entrepreneur. I said, No, I’m not going to do it. I also had this feeling of I don’t want to do tech anymore. I was just kind of tired of it. And my mentor called me at the exact same time. So Steve calls and he’s like, hey, you know, I’m not going to run my financial planning business forever. So he retired from IBM, realized he was so good at managing his own money. He wanted to do that. For others. He didn’t need to make money. He didn’t, he didn’t need to do it. He liked to work. And he said, I want to retire from this at some point. And I want to know that my clients are going to be in good hands. Why don’t you come join me in my business. And then they use manage money at this point. It’s financial advisement, it’s helping people rollover. 401k is to IRAs, it’s making life insurance investments, it’s really just planning their future and trying to figure out financially how to achieve their goals, and then building plans to do it. So he was a Certified Financial Planner. And I thought, wow, you know, I got my degree in finance, not tech. And why don’t I go do this, I love financial, I love helping people achieve their goals, I love the coaching process, the psychology, etc. That sounds like a great fit for me, he was offering me an opportunity to come join him in his business. And he made me a really amazing offer. He said, I’ll take my revenue, and we’ll split it in half on day one, you will make an income on day one, I will take half. And then he said the rule, though, is, if anytime in the next two years, we split, you got to pay me that back. So I’ll invest in you. And we’ll build this up. And then five, 610 years from now you can take over the whole business, I’ll retire out of it. I’ve got this client tell that’s working, et cetera. So that was the premise of why we started, I’m like, That’s great. I’ll get to work with my mentor. And I’ll get to grow the business. And you know, and we did, and it was interesting, because my first focus was on automation, and efficiency and technology. So I started building things for us, you know, integration for charting systems to reflect what customer portfolios had, I built a Monte Carlo simulator, which is to predict outcomes based on risk and time horizons with people’s portfolios. And this ultimately led to how I started the forest business because having worked with them for six months, getting my licenses, and then finally earning the trust and respect of my own client, I had to handwrite their forms. I’m like, This is dumb. I’m gonna make $4 An hour handwriting forms now. So I built tech and I started filling out forms automatically. The irony was, so imagine Steve is this really experienced IBM guy who ran software companies. I showed him my software, and he was like, Oh, okay. didn’t really care, not interested. And it took me three months to get him to actually try it. And then he tried it. And he was like, Why haven’t I been using this for three months? This is amazing. This is the best software ever. I’m like, I told you.
John Corcoran 28:19
I know, then it changed or not interested in did that? Did he join you in that new business, they’re having a spin-off?
Rich Walker 28:26
Well, so this is where things got interesting. We had somewhat of a falling out. And when we were talking about our business, so let me back up the tech side of this, I built it as a tool for myself, I really didn’t intend to take it to market. So I just kept doing our work, etc. I was refining how he and I were going to be financial planners together. And I started to realize I was not good with his clients. I wasn’t their age, I didn’t have their perspective. I didn’t have kids. I didn’t put kids through college. I just didn’t get it. And I was working with a much younger clientele. That was more my style like the Arthur Andersen guys. So I started to realize there’s this dichotomy of like, I don’t want to take over his business, because I don’t know how to service it. And I want to focus on the business little differently. Meanwhile, I had actually gone to my mom, who’s also a technologist and said, Why don’t we put the software together and see what happens. So I worked at totally in my spare time to build this out with her to do our first install. And our first install was February 11th 2002. And around that point in time, my relationship with Steve came to a head. Now part of it was I’m changing direction, and he had his own direction, and that didn’t necessarily work for him. I think part of it also, though, was I think he and I were so alike. We started to butt heads, the mentor relationship was dying, because now we were peers, and I, I have a strong personality. I admit that I have my ways of doing things and he has a very strong way of doing things. I laugh I still think about this because one day he was he was actually trying to teach me how to put stamps on an envelope. And then he stopped himself. He’s like, why am I saying this to you know how to do this? Right? Like, yeah, I’ve done 1000s I know how to do this. That was kind of a level of the detail he wanted to have in his business and how I was challenging it, because now he had to delegate and let go of what was his baby, essentially. So when I confronted him or presented to him, like, hey, I want to change the design or the way that we’re doing things. He turned and said, Why don’t we just split and not be partners, then I that caught me off surprise, I was like, Oh, I hadn’t really thought about that. Because at this point, I had not committed to the software business, that was gonna be my mom, she was going to run it, I was going to help her with marketing, sales, whatever. And that struck me and then it became real. And then we had a actually pretty tense couple of moments of, of kind of fighting about it. And also, I owed him that money back. So He then started pestering me and just kind of poking and saying, how are you gonna pay me back? You got to pay me back. So how are you going to do that? And it was making it pretty difficult for me. So eventually, I decided, You know what, I’m gonna cash out my 401 K and pay all the penalties. I’m gonna sell my dream car, which was a BMW and three, I’m gonna go buy the cheapest car I can afford. And I’m just going to give him the cash. And so I showed up to a meeting with him. And I handed him a check silently. And he looked at it. He’s like, is this real? I’m like, yeah, it’s real. And he was like, how did you do this? I said, doesn’t really matter, does it? I’m paying you back. And then he got really personal again, is like, no pitch. How did you do this? Like, how did you come up with this money? Because he knew I had nothing. And I told him, he was like, wow, wow, he’s like, that is exactly what I would have done in your shoes. He’s like, I’m impressed. This again, tells you how similar we were. And I guess maybe I learned some things from him. I learned a lot from him. Yeah,
John Corcoran 31:51
It sounds so the way you describe it. Now. It sounds like maybe you were able to patch things up later.
Rich Walker 31:57
Not exactly. It was more that we were on good terms. But it was no longer my mentor. I wasn’t really seeking advice from him. And look, I think part of it is I think he wanted to be part of the software business. And me paying him off was a way to say there is nothing here, we’re splitting paths. Because I see the software opportunity and look to John, there’s another thing that happened for me about my psychology about money, which was in financial advisement, I have to tell somebody, Hey, if you want to reach your goal to save $15,000 a year, sorry, sorry, 16,000 a year because you got to pay me 1000, I felt guilty about asking people to pay me when they needed to save that money, software, I don’t feel guilty about people paying for my software. So I realized I can sell software, I have a hard time selling financial services as as my business. And that was a clarity moment where I said, You know what, I think it’s time for me to shift. And I took two years to transition from financial advisement, transition my clients off to being full time in the software with my mom. And by that I saw the vision of what the software could do. So yeah, I mean, we kept in touch over the years, but our relationship was never the same after that, unfortunately.
John Corcoran 33:07
Yeah, kind of the perils of going to visit the business with a mentor.
Rich Walker 33:11
Yeah, I honestly I see it. I see it as one of the greatest gifts that he ever gave me. Because in a way, it was like he kicked me out of the nest and made me fly. He I got put into a position where I had literally $0 I had a broken engagement with my fiance. I had a beater car, and this brand new fledgling business and a time of downturn in the market after 911. Yeah, the.com bubble burst everything. So I just looked at it said, Wow, I have to be a man, I have to stand up and be my own person. And I’m gonna have to make it through this. And so that’s what we did.
John Corcoran 33:51
And what was it like in those early days? Imagine it took a little while before it gained traction?
Rich Walker 33:58
Yeah, it did. I made $1,000 A month income for the first four years of this company. And my rent was over $1,000 a month. When I talked about being an entrepreneur with people and bootstrapping it, I say how well do you sleep at night? And you know, the thing is like my wife, she could never sleep at night knowing she doesn’t know how to pay rent the next month. I never knew how he’s going to pay rent the next month after I paid this month’s rent. And I never lost a minute of sleep over that because I saw money as a tool. I said, I’ll figure it out. I’ll always figure it out. And in those four years, and really five and six years, too. I never missed a payment never laid on anything. I always was totally covered. I ate food. I had gas for my car. I made it work. I went into debt.
John Corcoran 34:44
How did it help me? How did you make it work if you weren’t getting paid enough for your rent? I?
Rich Walker 34:51
Yeah, I know. So, you know, one of the great things at that moment in time was that every credit card company in the world was giving out 0% interest. Hmm. I had every 0% interest offer you can imagine, and I had learned about building credit from age 18. Here I am 26 years old, I had access to over 150,000 of credit revolving credit. So what if I needed money, I could go take out $10,000 With 0% interest, you know, maybe a small penalty to withdraw it or sometimes none. I had all sorts of loans that were like 1% 2% for the life of the loan. But it was like college loans all over again, it
John Corcoran 35:31
carried that forward in the first early days, early years of the business in order to finance the business.
Rich Walker 35:37
The first 13 years of the business, 14 years, the business, maybe 15 years, I think it’s 15 years before we paid it off. Yeah, I carried a lot of debt. The other side of it was my mom was my business partner, she would mortgage her house, you know, home equity line. And so she I put 150,000 of revolving credit, she put 150,000 of mortgage credit. But other things would happen, it would be amazing. Here it is June 30. I gotta pay rent on July 1, and boom, Somebody ordered $6,000 with the software paid in advance, I’m like, we can pay rent. Literally those things happened. Sometimes I’d get a gift somebody gave me a LIKE $1,000 gift. I was like, this works this, this, this’ll this will do it. So yeah, there’s creative ways to figure it out and lucky ways to
John Corcoran 36:25
Yeah. So going from financial planning to basically software entrepreneurs a pretty massive shift. But at the same time, you were scratching your own itch, which is classic, you know, entrepreneurial move, right, you know, realize I have this pain. There are others out there who have this pain as well. But I’m sensing that it wasn’t as easy as just hanging a shingle. Here’s the solution. We’re done. Talk about some of the struggles and the challenges and iterations that you went through in those early years.
Rich Walker 36:57
Yeah, my mom and I had a simple premise. We’ll charge $150 a year for the software license, we’ll get 1000 people to pay us that should not be hard in the first year. That’s 150,000. We’ll pay ourselves 50,000 Each and have 50,000 for operations. Boom, we’re good. Right? Boom. Yeah.
John Corcoran 37:12
Got it all planned out.
Rich Walker 37:13
Yeah. Okay. So in year one, we signed up six count of six users. In year two, I think we signed a 60 or 70, more, maybe 80. It was a TEDx. Yeah, right. It was tough. And then of course, you always, you always hear about the idea of pivoting. And I always tell people who want to be entrepreneurs, your first idea is not your best. It’s the one that gets you out of bed and makes you excited to start the business. And frankly, our first idea wasn’t the best one, either. So two years into the business, I realized, the core component that runs our software, which I call the engine could be pulled out and served to clients as an individual component as an API. And we decided in 2004, we’re going to turn that on. And our first customer was mass Mutual Life Insurance with 5500 users. So suddenly, I went from selling one license at a time to 5000 licenses, yeah, at a smaller price point. But nonetheless, making a bunch of money with a bunch of users with one sale. And I was like, oh, wait a minute here. I like this sales process better. So we pivoted from being a retail, turnkey product to an API-based product, we still had the retail, we never grew the retail product to where it could be. But we grew that enterprise sale. And you know, we, if you look at our market, by the first five years, we had, like 12, or 15 of the top 20 companies using that API behind the scenes. And to this day, we have 18 of the top 20 using that product. So it was a really good pivot for us and a change in dynamic for the business. Besides which, charging somebody $150 versus somebody 25,000 setup fee, that does wonders for your revenue.
John Corcoran 39:00
Yeah, definitely. As the same time over the last 20 years, there’s been so many changes in the game from, you know, 20 years ago, I’m pretty sure it was still shipping out CD ROMs to install software to the movement towards cloud-based computing, to talk about some of those big shifts in just in the world of software over the last 20 years and how you navigated them. Yeah,
Rich Walker 39:24
I we were cloud-based from the beginning before it was called Cloud, which kind of was bewildering, like what do you mean cloud, but we decided we’re not going to ship any physical product because that required state tax or sales tax. I’m sorry, we didn’t want to deal with that. There was just a simplicity problem. Second was how do you get the forms our competitor was sending out a CD of forms or a DVD every three months and we said you should be able to get them right now. So we built a download service to download all those things. But yeah, we changed a lot over the years. I like to think we reinvented ourselves from the ground up several times. You know, going from a turnkey kind of traditional SAS product software as a service product to an API-based product that’s all white labeled behind the scenes to changing the the forms model, we were originally an entirely PDF, we just lived on the PDF model. Pardon me in 2012, I invented the HTML form viewer, so it was now independent of Adobe. And it can be shown on any browser on any device, you also have to remember one of the biggest changes is the iPad, in financial services was notoriously PC, Microsoft PC based. So it was really easy. But as soon as the iPad came out, within a year 50% of financial advisors had an iPad. And now we have to think about Mac OS. And PDF was not a good fit for that. So we had to adapt. It took me four years to transition that into this HTML model. And then it took more years to get customers to buy into it and start using it. So then in 2017, we decided we’re going to go back to being a turnkey company, and having more of a traditional SaaS product, and we literally spent two years building it from the ground up, thinking it would take six months, took two years just to get out the door. And now we’re in our third year, that product, it’s growing, it’s evolving. We’re super excited about what that brings to us. So yeah, you know, there’s other things that you shift. It’s not just product, one of the things you learn as an entrepreneur is what works and what doesn’t work. And in 2015, one of those key decisions was to start saying no to customers. And that was so hard to do somebody’s offering $150,000 to do their thing. And then you say no, we decided we’re gonna be hyper-focused on being the forms company, we do forms management forms, delivery. That’s it. And guess what happened? Our revenue started growing by 50%, a year, year over year. So yeah, we’ve had a lot of change in that time.
John Corcoran 41:48
Well, I know we’re running short on time. I always like asking the same question at the end. So I’m a big fan of gratitude. You’ve already mentioned your mother, your mentor he went into business with, but I love to ask people about those types of relationships, who had been critical, helping you along the way? Who would you want to call out?
Rich Walker 42:11
You know, I’d actually really like to thank my COO, Don, he joined our company for a job, because he wanted to be part of a startup, he took such little salary to be part of something, he took a menial role that was below him. And he just came in here and added value. He is our COO because he is the balance to me, the yin and the yang, we have totally different views on things. But we’re always in alignment 100% of the time, we’re in alignment. And he’s somebody that I can go to to talk about the toughest parts of our business and get clarity. He and I both go to each other with the anger, venting need to calm down and come back to reality and then have a better discourse with whoever we needed to have that discourse with. I honestly credit him with keeping me in check. Because I’m like an unbridled horse, I’m an entrepreneur, I can easily have shiny object syndrome. And I have, I also want to run 100 miles per hour at all times. And he tempers that to keep us on the right path at all times. So I don’t know where I’d be without him joining our company and doing the work to earn the trust, and the respect and, you know, everything that goes with becoming a partner in the company. So I was super proud of that relationship. I’ve met lots of entrepreneurs who don’t have that kind of relationship. And so I’m just very, very grateful to have found it by luck and happenstance. And for and he and I to become good friends.
John Corcoran 43:34
That’s great. Rich, this has been such a pleasure. Where can people go to learn more about you and connect with you?
Rich Walker 43:40
So I’m on LinkedIn, the quikformsceo, and of course, our website. I love talking to people. So I welcome any kind of inquiry. My my LinkedIn rule is, you should try to talk to me before we actually try to become LinkedIn buddies. So you can send me a message or email me [email protected]. Yeah.
All right, Rich. Thanks so much. Thank you, John.
Thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast with John Corcoran. Find out more at smartbusinessrevolution.com. And while you’re there, sign up for our email list and join the revolution. And be listening for the next episode of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast.