Paul Orfalea | Founder of Kinko’s Shares Secrets of Going From a 100-Square Foot Shop to 1,000 Locations and $2 Billion in Revenues

John Corcoran 10:08

the very beginning. Yeah. And Was there anyone you turned to? You know, were there books at the time? Do you have any mentors?

Paul Orfalea 10:17

Well, I think I wouldn’t see it at a business school degree, I paid attention. I didn’t set the world, I got C’s. But I can honestly say, if I learned it, I remembered it. And there’s something about note taking, I never took notes, but I’d see, wow, this guy that’s cool. Like the professor in finance, it’s Subchapter S, I’d have to take notes on that. I just remember, that’s a great way to get out of taxes. Or you’re in accounting, and their professor says LIFO, or FIFO. And you say, Well, I think we have a lot of inflation, I think I’m gonna be on LIFO or your micro economics and you say, my variable cost is such and such. Low variable costs, my accounts receivable policy, should be very liberal. But if you applied what you did learn in school to the real world, it really helped me a great go in there. marketing to all the concepts I learned in Business School.

John Corcoran 11:14

Now, I was watching some interviews you’ve done previously, and Xerox was a big partner of yours because they produce the machines right? And you had a trick where you would approach them to buy copiers at the end of the year.

Paul Orfalea 11:29

Talk about that trick. I love that, Oh, well, these big companies, you know, understand these big companies are stupid. You know what a dinosaur is, you cut the tail of a dinosaur, it takes a minute for the pain to register in its head. These big companies have these goofy accounting procedures. I have encountered a lot of Goofy, Goofy, big companies that compensate for things that justify common sense. So I’d go to Xerox and that’s a god that’s really cool. He got those new machines that are really kind of cool. I want to buy like 300 of them. I go to the sand, September, October. So they’re getting Salvy. say, Well, you know what, I’ll pay the list price, whatever you chart will pay the list price. But what I want is for you to extend the service contract. So I would get for years, I could blast away on that machine. Well, when you think of what a machine is, it’s just a hunk of metal. But that’s the repair procedure, nothing, those damn things broke all the time. So what they would do is they would book the revenue and that year, but there was a contingent liability for all the service that they didn’t account on their books. So

John Corcoran 12:48

the sales guy didn’t care. He still gets his commission probably right.

Paul Orfalea 12:51

company, they could get to 20 $30 million sales. And at the end of the year to make their numbers but they and they have in that for some reason. They didn’t account for it internally properly. Yeah, that’s funny. Yeah.

John Corcoran 13:09

Now, let me ask you, because you became a big company, your company became a big company. How did you avoid what you just said from happening to you? In other words, how do you

Paul Orfalea 13:18

can’t that dam overhead go up insidiously, and you gotta fight it, FIGHT it fight, it finally wins the overhead. What happens is, every time we make a rule, we have a little problem, we make a rule. That meant I took away initiative from the person in the field. And so there was a constant battle with overhead and centralization. There’s a concept in organizational behavior. That organization started as a lot of independent thinking, for example, the United States. Prior to the depression, we had a lot of independent thinking. We needed a strong central authority. So we elected Roosevelt and we built a strong federal government. Businesses go from too much independent thinking, too much centralization, decentralization, too much red tape, they finally have to have a purge to get rid of a lot of overhead. But there’s always a battle because once you start centralizing, it’s inevitable. That and you’ve got to fight it. Every day, I fought the overhead and it’s just but you, you have to understand the government wants to be paid their money, they’ve got to have proper accounting procedures. The HR department has a certain way of doing things that the legal department wants to do. And just as the owner, you’re navigating all these various groups and every one of them. It’s not easy, and then You know, as the owner, you’re the last to be paid. gotta pay everybody the government, everybody. And whatever’s left over, you might get this much. Yeah. And then guess what that much? Because your business grew, you have more receivables, you have more inventory. It’s not like in the checkbook.

John Corcoran 15:18

Yeah. Yeah, you can see how for any business owner, it becomes tempting to cash out and sell it eventually.

Paul Orfalea 15:26

Well, yeah,

John Corcoran 15:28

why not? Yeah. Because then your

Paul Orfalea 15:30

sale was for sale from day one. I find, when people say I love my business, I think that’s terrible, you love your family, you cannot love your business, you can enjoy your business. But once you start loving it, you’re not objective about that damn business. You’re not seeing for what it really is. Right now, for an example. In the 90s, I saw that laser printer coming after me. And I kept thinking that laser printers can do a lot of things that we can’t do with a copier. And at the time, we were, we were like a darling company. And I’m sitting there. Nick is gone. I’m not quite sure we have a future here. So it’s really hard in 1997. To project confidence when I’m feeling so insecure, in my heart, yeah. But we successfully sold it in 1997.

John Corcoran 16:29

Yeah, now you sold it in two different chunks, right? You sold a portion of it, and then a different portion later, correct? Yeah. Now, John Greathouse told me I have to ask you about that. And I’ve read a little bit about you having a few regrets about the way that the sale went down?

Paul Orfalea 16:43

Oh, no, no, I never risked getting the money. I regretted the way they treated really nice, decent people. Now do you remember the movie godfather one and godfather two? Sure. Godfather one, he built an organization in a modicum of scruples, he wouldn’t go into drugs. But as long as you’re productive, he was okay with you. Godfather two was all about loyalty. Are you loyal to me? Not to your organization? Or have you killed everybody at the end? That’s the way it is in these big companies. The first person builds a company, succeed organization, the second person comes in, says, Are you loyal to me?” And what they do is if they’re not loyal to them, they let them all go. And I found that that was very disconcerting, because we look, we’re working with some really wonderful people that really had their heart and soul in that business and really loved it. And the way they were treated so ruthlessly and cavalierly by the people from New York, by the way that people in New York were liars. I’ve never believed that people intentionally lied. Until I met the people

John Corcoran 17:52

from New York. Yeah. So is there anything that you would do differently? Or is there anything that you regret about the sale?

Paul Orfalea 17:59

I gotta check. If you know, 10 years after I sold the business, revenue was down 72%. Wow. goes to a copier. What do you do with big copies anymore? Yeah.

John Corcoran 18:11

Well, that relates to another question. I was gonna ask you a little bit later in the interview, but it makes sense. Now. You’re such an interesting, innovative entrepreneurial guy. If you were to continue running the business today. Let’s say you’d never sell it. And you were running it today. What would the Kinko’s of today, see you look of disgust in your face. But there’s, for example, co working spaces that serve the entrepreneurial startup community. That’s what you did, right? So would it be would it have evolved into a co working space or what would Kinko’s of today look like if you were if you were running, it still would have

Paul Orfalea 18:48

evolved to a co-working space. Because we started getting workstations, I was designing things where they could be soundproof so you could make telephone calls inside a booth in all of our stores. We had a way to baffle the noise. That’s one possibility. The second one was that it took a lot. Kinko’s was an operating company that sold, we weren’t a selling company that operated. And we had to change the whole Gestalt of the organization to become a selling company, meaning that every grade school class at the end of the year could have a little booklet, like a memory book, like an annual but every grade you go through, you have one of those. Every funeral could have a memorial thing with some sort of writing about the human being. But that meant that our company had to go from making copies to publishing. And I didn’t think we had great operators but they weren’t necessarily good salespeople. And I kept seeing all the new technology coming our way and I was working with people in their 50s that one can embrace new technology. So if we probably had a younger workforce that embraced anxiety, we could have figured out a position in the marketplace. But I always felt that we would sell out in FedEx or UPS. Interesting. Yeah.

John Corcoran 20:24

Yeah, that’s interesting. I want to circle back to something you were just talking about the difference between centralized power and individualized thinking. And you know, you’ve talked a lot about this, but you gave a lot of power to both the franchise, ease and also even to the customer service to the people at the counter to make a decision, if there was a mistake, they could do whatever it took to rectify it. So talk a little bit about that about your approach and how that worked for you.

Paul Orfalea 20:53

When the variable cost was 16 cents, I sold it for $1. Now a mistake didn’t cost me anything. But the problem when you get a centralization, is mistakes become too, too important to the stupid reviews and all that. We had a policy that if a customer complained for whatever reason, we would go along with the customer and say what we can do to remedy the situation, and the counter workers to 16, our counter worker, were empowered to do whatever it took to take care of that customer. Now, of course, when we sell out to the distressed people from New York, what policy do they reverse instantaneously, that is how many layers of management that they put in. Now, if you want efficient organization, look at the Catholic Church, Bishop, Pope, Bishop, Cardinal Pope, there’s a billion Catholics, two layers, three layers, I needed four layers with the 1000 stores. And they wanted to add a fifth layer. Every layer of management screws things up 20% to justify their existence. So you get the vision here, this layer says, No, no, no, it’s got thicker than this layer. By the time it gets here. It’s usually all it’s never what you think it is. So I’m I, when we had I had the organizations are really flat organizations, and empowered. Very few layers of management.

John Corcoran 22:24

Yeah, I want to ask you about in the 1980s, you’re growing really fast, you realize you needed help, you found a young USC professor named John Davis who was recruited to work for you. He stayed there for two decades or so and he also helped develop Kinko’s philosophy, which talks about intimate individualized and independent thinking, which we’re talking about here, talk a little about your relationship with John Davis.

Paul Orfalea 22:50

Oh, John, is a fantastic person. He’s just what you just, he’s an organizational behaviorist. So he could come in, and analyze your organization, your weaknesses, and all that. And so he could just tell you, the spark and his eyes, he knew what he was doing. So he, I’m really good at getting out of work. Most people say they’re really good at getting on at work, I know how to get out of work. So we needed a statement for our managers and our field, people of our priorities is sort of like an impressionistic painting versus a realistic painting. I needed some sort of impressionistic painting to say, what are our values? Well, our primary values are to take care of our customers, we want to openly communicate that a mistake is okay with us. We want to be good stewards for the environment. Now, what is it? Would you say we want to be good stewards for the environment? Basically saying, don’t spend a bunch of money, turn off the lights, be a little frugal here, it kind of goes along with business. So we developed our philosophy, it was a statement that you looked at, and it kind of guided you every day to make a decision. They could if they could, sometimes I get phone calls from people in the field and I’d say what did you read about philosophy? So it’s a free way to

John Corcoran 24:22

get out of work, and you had a laminated copy that you carried around in your wallet for years. I’m curious, do you still carry it in your wallet?

Paul Orfalea 24:28

So upstairs, is that Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s cool.

John Corcoran 24:35

It’s interesting. I want to ask about your relationship with your franchisees and I was reading about it. You know, you didn’t believe in treating them with kid gloves. You believed in having sometimes forceful arguments with them about what is the right way to do things, talk a little bit about that.

Paul Orfalea 24:56

When they were franchisees, I’d find somebody idle. If I liked them, and they had saved a little bit of money, I’d lend them money to be my part. Got it. And by doing that we shared in the profits, but a franchise or is somebody else to top you don’t really trust because they’re good. There’s an antagonism there.

John Corcoran 25:20

So that was a deliberate decision to do it that way.

Paul Orfalea 25:23

I deliberately did it that way, I did not like the franchise model. I thought there was a lot of antagonism between the central authority in the field. And I understood that that business of ours had to reposition itself constantly. We were at a little coffee shop or on a college campus. And more and more technology came our way. We started going to the commercial area, then the entire publishing industry sued us for a publishing program we had for professors, and we lost real severely, we had to fundamentally re-pivot the business then. So

John Corcoran 26:03

how much of your revenue was Did you lose, sir,

Paul Orfalea 26:07

that you recall, you see, was about, I’d say, about $300 million a year. And my variable cost was 16 cents on the dollar. Now significant. We’re saying 7% of the textbook is at Ohio State. So yeah, hurt what

John Corcoran 26:33

Was that experience like going through that litigation when you were sued by the publishing companies?

Paul Orfalea 26:37

was five feet two feet from hell? You know, it’s a funny story about that. I just had a really good back to school, I had money in the checkbook, and I’m 30 target take myself seriously. driving and driving from LA to Santa Barbara going, you know, I must take myself seriously now. The next day, I got sued by the entire publishing industry. So I said, I’m really superstitious about taking myself seriously. I don’t really know what I asked. My dad used to say the biggest reason you fail in life is that you pass on success, it goes to your head. And so I was no, I was absolute hell.

John Corcoran 27:27

But is it that that leads to your decision to sell or to contribute? Now?

Paul Orfalea 27:31

No, the business was for sale from day one. Your business is an instrument to make you happy. You don’t owe you all it doesn’t own you. I’m a real believer that you’re in business to enjoy your life and enjoy your family. And so I didn’t. My problem was that my nickname was Kinko because of my kinky hair here. But the only thing I really ever did capably in my life was Kinko’s. So I could have easily been seduced by Kinko’s. But I wanted to keep Paul in the equation. So there was a real struggle to be seduced by my business persona, but who the hell am I really and so I was really conscious of those that give and take a lot of people get seduced by their business, they don’t own it, there’s the deuce button let the business own them. Now

John Corcoran 28:27

because of the way that you’ve structured your relationship with your partners, not the franchisees, but the partners and because it wasn’t a traditional franchise model, there’s some legal complexity that had to be overcome when it came time to sell or prepare for sales. Let’s talk a little bit about that.

Paul Orfalea 28:46

We wanted to roll up to one big company and they had 164 various owners feeling l had in common They were like Minnesota, they’d be two or three owners

John Corcoran 29:00

and they were partners with me, you personally not meeting those corporations?

Paul Orfalea 29:04

No, no, because we were a Subchapter S and a C couldn’t own s got and so we had a bunch of subject dresses around the country maybe

John Corcoran 29:15

two to 1000 different locations worldwide and you all you have these individual personalized agreements with all these different

Paul Orfalea 29:23

Yeah, the only thing I tell somebody is some great people. I’d say now you’ve got the state of Tennessee. The only owner makes sure you are a Subchapter S. I had no written agreements. Just make sure you’re a sub 

John Corcoran 29:37

no written agreements, if they did any of them want to prevent you from selling the company when that happened.

Paul Orfalea 29:42

We got all 164 of them, too. It was hard to agree on one big roll up.

John Corcoran 29:54

Did you have to go around to all 164 and get there?

Paul Orfalea 29:57

I did. I did talk to them . Wow. We’re not talking. But you have to understand here I am talking about selling the company, but I don’t believe in the future of the company. Right? Yet I had a real dilemma. Yeah. If you’re not paranoid about wanting a business, you have a real problem. I took solace from the fact that Andy groves, founder of Intel said, even paranoids have enemies on paranoid, and I was right in that perception of when it was time to get out of dodge. So here’s my dilemma. I’ve tried to be a cheerleader, but I really don’t believe in a lot of cheerleading. Yeah,

John Corcoran 30:38

that must have been an emotionally fraught time for you.

Paul Orfalea 30:41

Yeah, it was, let’s say that three, four year period, there was when there was anxiety filled time in my life, maybe the publishing suit was also. Or maybe every summer being broke, might have been anxiety, anxiety and ambition or best friends. Yeah, they

John Corcoran 31:03

go well together. I want to ask you about your theory of management. Would you credit your wife, Natalie? Yeah. x, y, x, y, I will tell you about it. Your theory of management.

Paul Orfalea 31:17

Management is to remove obstacles. The only reason you have a boss is to make your job easier, not harder. Does it make sense for a boss to say, well, let’s go out and burden these poor workers, they can be more unproductive. So I always followed that theory, your primary job as an executive to remove obstacles so your people can be more productive. I must have made you popular with the people that were for, you know, middle management that didn’t necessarily. The managers truly liked me. And they knew I was always on their side,

John Corcoran 31:50

the managers like you, the middle management didn’t like you. And then counter workers

Paul Orfalea 31:54

Will managers really like it because they knew I was always on their side? middle management, their little was a little more wins as delicate as they could have been.

John Corcoran 32:08

Yeah. I want to get to your post about Kinko’s life but is there anything else that you want to reflect on? while we’re still on the topic of Kinko’s leading up to the sale?

Paul Orfalea 32:19

Most owners of businesses forget what they do and help how it helps you. People or humanity. For us, what we do every day, we help somebody get a job. This little girl in Spokane, Washington was abducted. The family went to the police department first, who went to the second to do the posters. Those are powerful connections too powerful to earth. And so I always try to remind people what we did for a living really helped humanity in their highest aspiration. Yeah, I think of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. What we did really helped people aspire to the best and most creative part of themselves. Wow, that’s great. Just forget to relate what they do. They sell joy, like the bowling alley, we’re selling joy. Look at the smiles people have on the compilable I used on a bowling alley. But people forget to embark on the owner’s job. I embark on the sense of purpose I go to work to accomplish this for the world. Even if you’re opening up an arm from ups, no receivables department, what you’re doing is you’re contributing to this and I put pictures of happy customers and joyous things on the wall. Just to remind them what we’re doing here is just not opening envelopes and filling out bank deposit forms for the receivables department. Putting in forms, you’re building something that’s great

John Corcoran 33:54

I love that. After you sold Kinko’s you moved into something completely different. So academia and philanthropy and mentorship you spent a lot of time I’ve done a lot of interviews giving back like here today. Talk a little bit about what that was like moving into that next chapter. And you know, so different especially from the the world of entrepreneurs and fam in your family that you came from

Paul Orfalea 34:21

My cell phone, businesses, a lot of businesses, I’m always learning different things. I still kept involved with business, but I would never let a business on any of my time. So that’s always my definition of owning a business. What I do now is I can easily entertain myself very easily and I find the world very interesting. But on the philanthropy side of the house we live in two different worlds. You know, Christ said He sees the face of the poor sees me. And I just don’t know if we are as aware of how people are struggling in this world. Here in Santa Barbara, you know, we live on the coast, and we have children that have never seen the ocean. They live three blocks away from the ocean. 50% of our Latino community in Santa Barbara, or Santa Barbara County don’t know how to swim. They know how to ride a bike. They’ve never really been outdoors. Yet, I see the affluent children around me having every luxury on Earth. So in my philanthropy, our philanthropy, we first got involved with preschools. And I’m proud to say that 45% of the preschools in Santa Barbara County are accredited. The closest county to us and California is 9%. We got involved with school food. The biggest common instrument in our cafeteria was a warmer and plastic. They didn’t use knives in the kitchen, because we got food from scratch healthy food at lunch, we put in nutrition, I don’t think children need mid morning protein we worked with now I’m involved with schools, grade schools, particularly, we got involved with disasters here in Santa Barbara, and we help build the disaster center. It’s kind of a, we’ve had some major disasters

John Corcoran 36:49

you have in your community. Yeah, right in our community.

Paul Orfalea 36:52

But anybody who thinks that we’re not gonna have an earthquake must be taking LSD for brains. And if you aren’t prepared with a disaster kit and know what to do with an earthquake.

John Corcoran 37:04

Now, yeah. How did you when it came time to approach philanthropy? How did you decide between, you know, so many different causes?

Paul Orfalea 37:14

was simple. We lost a child, my wife. And I went, and I kept seeing, and I remember how we had our kids and how difficult these children are. And I kept thinking of a single mother, how in the hell does she do it? Here we have two parents, I’ve helped with the house. My kids are driving me out of my mind. How does a single mother ever have any balance in life, yet the big shot is going out to the Easter Seals banquet, being acting like big shots yet the people at work don’t have health insurance. Their children don’t have orthodontic coverage. And I kept thinking that’s my cause, single parents. So for an example. lactation is very important. And we changed the lactation policy of our local hospital. I wouldn’t give any money unless they were taught lactation. breastfeeding. Normally, the nurse in the hospital says well it gives this damn baby a bottle it’s a lot easier. Well, that’s not the key to a baby’s health. It starts with breastfeeding. In Santa Barbara County, we got our breastfeeding up to about 60% national average about 30% breastfeeding.

John Corcoran 38:35

Your cousin started the Freebirds Burrito chain, which is famous to anyone who’s from Santa Barbara, and it was right around the corner from where the first Kinko’s was.

Paul Orfalea 38:47

I know I tried to work with Mark in opening Freebirds but I opened a lot of coffee shops just the same time as Starbucks was expanding. And a companion business for us would be a coffee shop next door. Definitely 24 hour dry cleaners. I realized that the saris figured Kinko’s was part of a strategic puzzle. If I own a 24 hour strip mall with companion businesses, like I went to 20 for a drugstore it just really did well in the 90s. So it was a freeway. It just made sense. So I I tried to start these component businesses. I started in my 40s and then by my 50s I didn’t want to work so hard so I couldn’t and I couldn’t get various tenants, you know, my own businesses, to cooperate with us to build centers. So, I think the concept would have worked well. But I kept looking at department stores thinking, “How can some fancy department store have food and cosmetic shoes? Those are all Kinko’s as part of a department store, so I kept that was what my dream was to combine

John Corcoran 40:09

with the Freebirds. So the burrito joints you can get 24 hours a day 3am if you need to get copies done and if you need

Paul Orfalea 40:16

coffee, and you’ve got an espresso cappuccino, yeah. I’m sold. I’m sold. So well, I ended up selling a coffee shop chain. about 30 of them. What was the name of it? espresso? Just aroma. That was another one we were supposed to rail. funny prepper nails are kind of as you get older, your proper nouns don’t work as well.

John Corcoran 40:48

Are you still in any businesses that are interesting that you want to add about?

Paul Orfalea 40:53

You know that out? Like WeWork? It’s a we’ll have one of those incentives?

John Corcoran 40:59

Oh, yeah. We did an event at that location, actually. Yeah, yeah. In conjunction with a conference, we did an event there . There’s a beautiful space.

Paul Orfalea 41:09

There should be more of those. I know there shouldn’t be but I know if I want to be ambitious again. Then I just sold the bowling alley I held for 20 years. And believe it or not, bowling is the exact same business as Kinko’s. Exactly the same business?

John Corcoran 41:27

Why the hell? So

Paul Orfalea 41:28

you rent time on a machine? I’m running a business. What do you think a restaurant is? They think you’re in the food business or the time around the business. Completely different orientation when you think you’re selling time, because you know what? restaurants, they can’t sell yesterday’s time, I can’t sell yesterday’s hour and that bowling machine or my set yesterday is our coffee. So most people don’t understand their time relevance.

John Corcoran 41:56

But I also want to ask you about the Orfalea Center for Global & International Studies, which is at UC Santa Barbara. You got to sit down with my old boss, President Clinton, at UCSB and interview him, what was that experience like? And and also what was launching the center

Paul Orfalea 42:15

like? Well, I’ve met President Clinton, and I think we hit it off. I asked him a couple of questions. I said some times that I always admired President Clinton. After the Oklahoma bombing, he went to Oklahoma and said, you know, I’ll never call somebody a bureaucrat again. And I just thought, well, that’s kind of cool. I mean, you don’t call people dirty names and try to motivate them. And then the second one was in Africa. Once I could see panic in his eyes, because I think that he thought the crowd was rushing. I mean, I asked him about that. And he said, No, no, a woman had fainted in the front row. Those are two obscure questions. I don’t think it was ever asked. So we report we visited, and I think he thinks, well, we have a report.

John Corcoran 43:05

And the center wouldn’t What motivated you to get behind that.

Paul Orfalea 43:15

It studies transformational pieces. And the guy. Great professor named Mark jergens. Meyer studied, he wrote a book on religion conflict. And I liked what we did there. We were going to be at one point a few years ago. Going to bring him his sub well, his supposition is that the root of it is a religious conflict. If you can get all the religious people together, recreating you can maybe bring some transformational change in beliefs. So we had a meeting with a big shot rabbi and the Big Shot moolah, sir. And they were all going to come over here and had their special pots and pans. But we had it set up but then their war broke out in the Middle East. We couldn’t get it done. But he’s system, fantastic human being and he started the department. Yeah, yeah.

John Corcoran 44:20

That’s great. That’s great. Paul, such a pleasure talking with you. I want to wrap things up before I do. Last question that I enjoy asking, which is, I’m a big fan of gratitude. So if you look around at your peers and your contemporaries, however you want to define that, who do you respect? Who do you admire?

Paul Orfalea 44:42

You always ask two things. First of all my career I was under so much financial pressure. I never said no thank yous to people. That was really bad. Thank you. So I didn’t show enough gratitude and I found reflection in my life. That thank you was probably the best motivator. It was Just an act of appreciation. And I didn’t do it enough. But the guy I, the most is Yvon Chouinard. He owns Patagonia, a man of absolute integrity. The way he conducts his affairs, the way he is a steward of the environment. He has a daycare center at his headquarters, he just does things right. for the right reasons. and admire them. That’s probably number one on my list of people that practice what they preach.

John Corcoran 45:35

That’s great, Paul. It’s such a pleasure. Where can people go to learn more about the work that you do these days or learn more about?

Paul Orfalea 45:44

The Audacious Foundation? Audacious Foundation? Yeah. And yeah, I don’t believe I’m going to be giving all my money away. I don’t see a purpose to hoarding it. I’ve been there’s so much need out there. Yeah. Good. Thank you. It’s not at the Opera House. Yeah.

John Corcoran 46:10

The opera is doing okay. Yes.

Paul Orfalea 46:12

Another Playhouse. They’re all doing real well, they don’t need my help. people waiting on you at the table, the cooks. People try to live on minimum wage. You don’t have health insurance that their children don’t have orthodontia. One of the proud programs we pay, we pay. We pay for orthodontia for Title One children. Every year, we have maybe about 300 orthodontists. Children’s fixator. And I have to tell you that you get a compounded rate of return society from orthodontia, job prospects, less incarceration, just better prospects for college. If you can smile and be happy with your smile, you have an advantage in life. Well, that’s one of the things I’m really proud of.

John Corcoran 47:04

That’s great. Paul, thank you so much. We’ll be sure to link that up in the show notes. Okay.

Paul Orfalea 47:09

Thank you. Take care of yourself. Enjoy your time, John.

Outro 47:13

Thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast with John Corcoran. Find out more at, and while you’re there, sign up for our email list and join the revolution. And be listening for the next episode of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast.