John Corcoran 13:30
Now, it was from that experience that you discovered affiliate marketing, and we’re talking this is 20 years ago. Now. What? First of all, why were you so drawn to affiliate marketing? What was it about you personally, that you really made it resonate, that it would become a big part of your career?
Jamie Birch 13:46
Well, at the time, I, you know, I took that job, partly because the other type of work I was looking at was a five to 10 year training program. And a 34 year old just felt so old to me back then. And I just, I thought, well, I could probably if I show the ability to take responsibility, be successful at it and kind of grok new things quickly, they’re just going to throw more things that me and that’s what they did. And it was, you know, paid search when that came out. And then email when we were using email to do marketing instead of we did a lot of two page letters at the time. So I did some work on actual direct mail pieces. And then affiliate got thrown in my lap and it wasn’t so much I sought it out. But this kind of fed all scratched all the edges. It was relational. And I love talking to people, I love meeting people and I love being part of someone else’s success even it’s just a little bit. It was strategic. So you’re working with other partners and like, you know, trying to understand their audience and how they reach them, and how you can add to their experience for their odd audience with what you have and trying to figure that out. And it was rapidly, you know, there’s rapid feedback. So you could do a campaign just like paid search, you could do a thing. And you’d see very quickly what the results were. And I love that I love to be able to, we would, you know, spend some money here, and we’d see the results. And I’d be able to tell everyone what happened, and why and then be able to direct our budget and things that way. So those, those things led me to just this is, this is what I want to do. Seo was great for a time I learned a ton. And I really enjoyed doing it. Paid search was also fun, but it didn’t have the relational aspect to it. And that really spoke to me because you can and that’s one thing that’s not changed with affiliate in the 22 years, if you don’t have solid relationships with people, if you don’t have a good network, if you’re not nourishing that and building it, constantly adding it taking care of it, you’re not going to be successful. So that spoke to me years later, I did a personality test for when I was at Coldwater Creek, and I heard my boss, you know, yelling my name down the hallway. And usually that’s not a great thing. And she just she laid down the Gartner I think it was Gallup Strengths Finder? Strengths Finder. And she goes, if I had thought about this before I hired you, you your profile would have been exactly what the job needed. And it was just
John Corcoran 16:38
the remember what the what the term was. They use individual terms.
Jamie Birch 16:42
I don’t remember the term but it was like strategic, relational communication. Was those things was it was Whoo. Yeah, yeah,
John Corcoran 16:51
me too. Man. That’s let’s say, I got the exact same thing. I think they brothers in Whoo. You get like three words. And and I did it at this group gathering of entrepreneurs. And like, the person at the front of the room said, Oh, and John Corcoran you’re a woo. And I was like, what’s that? And they explained it. I was like, bingo.
Jamie Birch 17:08
Yeah. Yeah, I didn’t know it. At the time. I was like, Okay, that was uncomfortable, because she was really excited. And I didn’t know what I thought I was gonna be in trouble.
John Corcoran 17:18
But chances are your boss was probably like, I hired the right person for this.
Jamie Birch 17:22
She was she was so excited. And that was actually, I had interviewed at that company before I went to Seattle. And it was such a long interview. It was like 11 hours in one day, I probably was like, more like seven. But it felt like 12 hours. At the end, the VP asked me you know, what, what I thought about it, and I’m like, I want to eat. That’s what I think about it. I had four people interview me during lunch, I couldn’t even pick up my sandwich. So the process for interviewing with that boss was a 30 minute interview, we got along really well. And, and I’m so glad I went there is one of the most impactful managers I’ve ever had.
John Corcoran 18:04
So for those, let’s take a step backwards. For those who don’t know what affiliate marketing is, why don’t you explain kind of how it works?
Jamie Birch 18:13
Yeah, so it is very simple, selling other people’s things. So you’re you’re a affiliates have an audience. And it’s it’s a form of advertising. So publishers and affiliates have an audience. You as an advertiser or retailer want to get in front of that audience, you have several ways of doing that several different channels, PR social paid search, email, display, and affiliate. So affiliate, the publisher has paid a commission based on what they sell. So if I’m working with Cabela’s as an advertiser, and my publisher is a phishing site, and they promote one of my rod and reel packages, and they sell $1,000, they may get 100 bucks on that. So super advantageous for the advertiser, they get to expand their reach dramatically, and pay after something good happens. Instead of putting money out and hoping good things happen, and then adjusting on a kind of lagging indicators. They get to realize the sale, pay a commission after the fact and then pour into what’s actually working. And publishers, it’s a whole realm of distribution that if you’re not working in it, you’re not having access to those customers affiliates have. One of the things that’s changed from when I started till now is they’ve done an incredible job of building a brand and building brand loyalty to the affiliate, not to the advertiser or retailer. So it’s essentially increasing your distribution and it’s a model for paying For that advertising distribution on a commission basis?
John Corcoran 20:04
And do you find now when you are now compared to when you were doing it years ago now, is there less education involved, or you still have clients that come to you where you need to kind of explain to them how it works? Yeah, there’s
Jamie Birch 20:19
still a lot of education involved. You know, it’s not a track taught in college. And usually your CMOS, and your, your, your C level, executives didn’t come up through that channel. So there’s still a lot of education involved. But it is changing, there’s a lot more available. And CMOS, and executives are getting, you know, more comfortable with the channel, the biggest education now is, is how much technology is available to, to ensure you’re getting, you know, good quality sales, they’re not interfering with other channels. And you’re getting really good customer acquisition through it.
John Corcoran 21:00
And and we were talking before, and you said, one of the interesting things about is that the world of PR in the world of affiliate marketing are kind of merging, in a sense. So talk a little about how you’re observing that.
Jamie Birch 21:11
Yeah, it’s a really all we saw start to happen right before the pandemic. And I think that kind of was a catalyst for those things. As we all kind of navigated these last two years with not really knowing what is going to go on three months from now. It required a lot of us to be way more accountable to what is happening with our marketing dollars. And I think that really pushed the PR channel into, you know, how do we report on this? You know, better what different KPIs can we use? How do we track all these activities at the same time, affiliate platforms and technologies were going well beyond last click, and well beyond just a simple link on a website, to being able to be tracked in just about every channel in every way through QR codes and all sorts of coupon codes. And once the affiliates and the platforms created and equipped the industry, with tracking beyond first click that combined with what all the changes going into PR kind of have led to this wonderful merging. Hmm.
John Corcoran 22:27
Now tell us about you had been, you went on to Coldwater Creek, which is one of the national was a national women’s retailer, had 700 million, several, several 100 million in sales, but you actually started the affiliate program. So I’d go from zero to 35 million. This is, you know, post.com era, what were things like for you, then what was it compared to like, what the world is like, now I imagine a lot different.
Jamie Birch 22:55
Yeah, well, there was still a lot of excitement about the web. You know, during the boom, in 99 2000, you know, there was a all the web teams got a lot of treats and massages, and you know, fully stocked kitchens and things like that, as the bubble burst, a lot of that went away, but Coldwater Creek still had a lot of that, because the they really found out how the digital arm augments everything else going on. And, and so it was still very much a lot of opportunity to test to try brand new things. And really any idea we could come up with to expose ourselves to new audiences and engage with them, like we tested and we tried. And so that was a really, really exciting time. And for me, that, that idea of if I showed ability to be responsible for the thing that they gave me, I would get more that kept happening. So it was more and more and more that, that I got exposure to paid search started to come out with goto.com back then. And so we did a bunch of things like that. I think what has changed is the barrier to entry for publishers was super low. So you could put a site out there, and you could, you know, fill your meta tags, and you could get rankings and traffic. And so the quality of the affiliates, some were great, some were not and the sophistication of the people at the control so your affiliate managers and things was was always lagging behind the publisher. So there was a lot of fraud. There was a lot of things being done that were hard to find hard to track and that led to what typically is and can be and is in many cases for our clients very efficient channel very cost effective channel. It increased costs and increased problems. And nowadays, we have so much technology to take care of that our affiliate managers are so much more sophisticated, we can tell when someone’s breaking terms and conditions, we have so many tools to protect the advertisers dollar and protect their other channels. It is, is amazing what we can do what we can find and how we manage those things, as opposed to back then it really was the Wild West. And if you could generate sales on a last click, you got promoted. And there’s a lot of affiliates that we worked with back then that were that aren’t around anymore, because they were doing things that no one would want done right now to generate a sale. And so the technology is vastly different than it ever was. You know, and
John Corcoran 25:51
another interesting development with it, of course, is social media, people can build audiences, across a lot of different channels now. And so talk a little bit about the impact that that has, and how that’s changed the world for publishers.
Jamie Birch 26:07
Yeah, well, we’ve gone through the cycle of first influencers and the social channels came out. And a lot of people were asking for big dollars to be involved in it. And then we kind of found out that they were, a lot of them were garbage, those followers weren’t there. And the the ROI wasn’t there, you’d spend five to 30 grand, and you’d get really nothing in return. And you you couldn’t even show that there was brand awareness made. So then there was sort of a backlash against that channel. And then all those networks started to clean up their numbers. And the affiliate community, the platforms and the networks that we worked with, came out with really great tools to track what was going on in those channels, and how to do that the industry kind of figured it out. And so now it’s a much different ballgame, it’s very important. For any advertiser any retailer to have a strong social channel, it’s easily tracked, it’s easily protected. And if you think about, I’m sure your purchasing process is very similar to mine. If you’re looking for something or even not, but someone you trust, yeah, recommend something, you’re sure you’re gonna buy it. And now it’s happening. With the new tools that we have, it’s happening even outside of, of the digital space, I, my family, we spend most of our time when we’re not working or in school, on horseback. And we follow certain, you know, influencers and teachers and clinicians there. And some of them are using affiliate marketing tools on the side of their trailers, they’re talking about it in their clinics, and people are able to go to a website or use a QR code or click, you know, type that link in their mobile phone, it’s all able to be tracked. And that is, you know, a whole new world. It’s super fun.
John Corcoran 27:56
In some ways, it’s really exciting. You know, for example, we just did a couple of repairs that are home renovations on kitchen and stuff like that. And so I had to make decisions about what sink Do you buy? And what tile do you use, and all this kind of stuff. And I was going on YouTube all the time, because the last time I was making repairs, my home was years ago, and now there’s these amazing different people out there that are putting out educational content. And previously, like, even before these tools existed, they wouldn’t have a way of monetizing or making money. You know, and now these people that maybe you know, they’re a handyman, or they’re a painter, or they’re a woodworker, or something like that, they have this additional channel, that that can generate some revenue for their business support their family. And I think that’s a wonderful thing.
Jamie Birch 28:46
Yeah, and it’s providing really good content. Like there’s one individual who I think it’s like, it’s like things your dad should have taught you or Yeah, and he does all these videos. And yeah, it’s, and it’s super easy to create that content now, and, and, you know, we record a lot of our stuff with our phones. I did a whole blog or a vlog series over the pandemic, and my daughter recorded me on my Android phone, and it’s really high quality. So I think the tools make it simple. And then the monetization, give that incentive for people to do it. Now you still have to be you have to be good with video. Yeah, you know, to do that, but yeah, and so we used to, you know, it was it’s always been about, you know, references. It’s always been about social proof for ages, right. But now we have such good content online, no matter what niche we’re in, or whether we’re you know, rehabbing a house or learning how to, you know, get ready for our first show on horses or anything like that. There’s so much good content out there. And that’s where advertisers need to figure out how to Get into there and provide really good content to do that. And social is gonna just continue to grow.
John Corcoran 30:06
Right, right now for for you for running the business, you’ve got a couple of different verticals you focus on outdoor gear health and beauty, travel and apparel. How do you manage to develop relationships with, you know, publishers and all these different segments, maintain those relationships, and then also kind of decide on, you know, how you manage that relationship. And, and, you know, if you’ve got different clients that you’re working with which ones you should, you know, you should you should use for different offers.
Jamie Birch 30:42
Well, first is a good CRM tool. So you can keep track of those things, a lot of it is time on board. And, you know, we hire natural relationship builders, you know, you need that you have to want to build relationships in order, you know, to make this work. So that’s, that’s a big part of it. And we keep a database of all the partners we work with on any programs. So when we get a new client come in, we do a quick gap analysis based on their profile, who else have we worked with in this profile, that very quickly creates a list of partners that could be successful with them. And then in our CRM, we have listed who is their preferred contact at our company. So if Samantha is the preferred company, for Forbes, then that’s who we’re going to go through. And so it’s just, you know, finding efficiencies in it able to do that finding the right CRM and other software, so that all we have to do is build the relationship. We don’t have to try and figure out who are we contacting, who’s the right contact, things like that. And it’s just over time that you build those relationships. It’s hard to automate relationship building, but you can automate everything that goes into that, which makes it a lot easier to have those conversations, and then a lot of it, you know, one of the key things is picking up the phone, a lot of people still want to do things over email and phone is scary for some. But you pick up the phone, it’s really easy to make a connection. Yeah, a few minutes, then over 72 emails over three weeks.
John Corcoran 32:13
Yeah. And it can ease things to I find people that communications over email all the time, you’ve got a sales team now and you you’ve had a Director of Sales for eight or nine years, I’d love to know some of your best practices and tips around that. Because I know that’s an area that a lot of businesses, especially agencies really struggle with is, is how to outsource sales and how to manage a team of salespeople.
Jamie Birch 32:34
Yeah, you know, I’ve made a ton of mistakes, I think the first, the first thing is an incentive plan that protects your profit, and is incentivizing the sales team to do what you need done. And so I think at my first salesperson, we paid in commission only, I’m embarrassed to say that, and his results were nothing he because it was really hard to make a living in selling an agency type product on commission only, and that didn’t work out. And then we swung the other way, and we gave too much away. So you really have to know what your margins are. So if you don’t have a good handle on your your, your profit per client, and your profit per FTE, then hiring a salesperson is is it may create a ton of business, that you’re losing money on every dollar you’re bringing in. And so you got to balance that out. So knowing what what is the all in cost for new customer acquisition? What is that? So is it it 10%? Okay, what’s 10%? How do you now work that into a salary plus commission? And then what is the commission? You know, what kind of sales Do you want? We, we, our contracts are retainer plus performance. And they we have some clients have been with us for 10 years. So these are ongoing things. And you probably know this yet, getting, I’m sure you noticed you acquiring a new customer is way more expensive than keeping a good one, you know, a current one there, and you get more efficient with the work you’re doing with that client over time. So your 234 and on can be really, really profitable. And so do you need do you want to incentivize on year two, year three? And how does that work? And you know, model it out. So you know, what your profit is when they bring those on and incentivize them accordingly and that that’s so we swung to the other direction and paid way too much. And it’s always a great conversation to say I don’t want to pay you more sales team is always 100% An awful conversation and you risk losing all of your sales, team members, when you have to change a commission to be less profitable for or more profitable for you, but it ends up being less profitable for them. And that can really piss people off. So you don’t want to go out with too much that you may have to bring back. And so we’ve been able to find, you know, commission structure for our sales team that and our sales director knows, like, when you bring your client and here’s our all in cost, this is what you have to work with. So if you need to incentivize your team, you have this to work with, and nothing more. And so that factors, his salary, and their compensation and all of that. So it’s, it’s really, you have to have a handle on your financials, your reports, your cash flow, your your p&l are the two bigger cash flow being king, if you don’t, if you don’t know, your profitability for each of your clients, then I wouldn’t add any more business in until you till you get it because we have grown quite a bit and lost money, and then had to peel it back and kind of rebuild. And it’s not it’s, I’ve learned a lot and every one of those, but you know, I’m turning 48, I don’t want to do that anymore. And so those are the things that I would do and then hire slowly. Like really interview, a lot of different people are a director of sales of new business right now is phenomenal. And he was recommendation from a trusted partner. And has done a tremendous job not only in bringing in new business, but being part of a leadership of the entire organization. So a lot of people say they can do sales, but not a lot of people actually can. And you got to know like strategy and communications are huge for selling agency type stuff, someone who can understand what we do. And what your agency does is super important.
John Corcoran 37:03
Yeah. We’re running short on time. So I want to wrap up with my gratitude question. I’m a big fan of expressing gratitude, especially to those who helped you along the way, especially peers and contemporaries. A lot of times people immediately are inclined to say, family or team members. But what I like to provide recognition for those, you know, peers and contemporaries that have helped you or mentors that have helped you along the way. So who would you want to just shout out and thank for helping you?
Jamie Birch 37:33
Well, there’s a couple of people at the Bureau of Digital that we’re in Mark Miller, has just been a good sounding board to the highs and lows of agency ownership. Tommy, I forget Tommy’s last name. As we had gone through a bit of trying to figure out what all this change in the industry means for our service. He spent a lot of time with me on how do you change what you’re doing? And how do you lead the team through that. Beyond that, I think of Randall Wilkinson, Randy Wilkinson was is a an entrepreneur, locally a doctor a pilot, he has sold multiple businesses, I met him through Cordyline web Marketers Association that we had years ago here locally, and he became an advisor, a trusted friend. And looking back every time something would happen in the company, I would run to Him completely freaked out. And, and he would come calmly, kind of walked me through it and spent a lot of time, you know, business owner to business owner, a lot of it was you know, hey, it’s going to be okay, let’s develop a plan. Here’s what you got going on. I think of Matthew Ray Scott, who I continue to spend time with i i actually was bringing in a speaker for the web marketers group and he couldn’t join and introduce me to Matthew Scott. And Matthew and I became instant best friends. And he has advised me so much in our sales process and leadership. That, you know, I just can’t I can’t think enough and thank him enough. Steven Denton was at one of our network partners was when I was at Coldwater Creek was our officer champion. So I spent a lot of time with him. And he was instrumental in my early career as an affiliate marketer and really helping me figure out what I wanted to do next and and how to work with him in the space. So there was a ton of people that poured into me early on and throughout my career that have been vital to our growth. A lot of a lot of them brought us some of our first business. Beth Kirsch brought me so many clients in the past that have done really, really well and help help us build our name and our brand that. Just there’s probably another hour of people I could thank. That’s a
John Corcoran 40:05
great list. Well, Jay has been such a pleasure talking with you. As you can see in the background, my kids are all
Jamie Birch 40:10
here. Now they are Yeah. They bring them on the podcast.
John Corcoran 40:14
They would occupy all of our time, I think. But where can people go to learn more about you?
Jamie Birch 40:22
Yeah, they can go to LinkedIn. Just linkedin.com/jamieebirch, then go to JEBCommerce.com and find me there. Those are probably the two best places to go. They can email me at [email protected].
John Corcoran 40:37
Awesome, Jamie. Thanks so much.
Jamie Birch 40:36
All right. Thank you. It’s pleasure.
Outro 40:42
Thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast with John Corcoran. Find out more at smartbusinessrevolution.com. And while you’re there, sign up for our email list and join the revolution. And be listening for the next episode of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast.