092: Bob Burg | How to Be a Giver

I have a quick question – can you really, systematically get the results you want from others ‘ even if they initially disagree with you or have position that is diametrically opposed to yours – while making them feel genuinely good about themselves, about the process, and about you’ Our guest on this podcast says, ‘Absolutely!” And he’ll explain how. Bob Burg is an author and a popular speaker at corporate conferences and entrepreneurial events. He regularly addresses audiences ranging in size from 50 to 16,000 ‘ and he has shared platforms with notables including today’s top thought leaders, broadcast personalities, Olympic athletes and political leaders including a former United States President. Although for years he was best known for his book Endless Referrals (referral link), over the past few years it’s his book The Go-Giver (coauthored with John David Mann) that has really become what he’s most well known for. The book was a Wall Street Journal Bestseller and it has been translated into 21 languages. Now his most recent book is Adversaries into Allies: Win People Over Without Manipulation or Coercion.’ We’re dive into that book in this interview. On a personal note ‘ Bob really walks his walk.’ At the beginning of 2015, I published an article in Forbes.com titled the 25 Professional Networking Experts to follow in 2015. It got a bit of attention at the time, and I included Bob among that list. A few days after that list came out, I received a handwritten note in the mail from Bob thanking me for including him, and a few weeks after that, he sent me a copy of his book. So in spite of all his success, he still takes the time to engage in personal touches like handwritten notes.  This episode is brought to you by my friends over at The Art of Charm podcast. The Art of Charm is an iTunes Top 50 podcast overall ‘ one of the few truly independent podcasts in that top 50. AoC is packed with ideas and strategies from how to work better to how be a better human ‘ they’ve covered topics like: how to create confidence; how to get people to like & trust you; productivity; networking and time-management. Their episodes are both fun and educational at the same time – not stuffy college professor textbook stuff. Go to TheArtofCharm.com or find The Art of Charm in iTunes or Stitcher or your favorite podcasting app. I love listening to the show and you should give it a try – I think you will as well. Enjoy! Right Click here to download the MP3Click here to subscribe via iTunesAdvertise on the Smart Business Revolution podcast

 

Sponsor: Rise25

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Transcript of Interview:

John Corcoran:There it is. Okay. All right, I'm speaking with Bob Burg, and Bob, your most recent book is Adversaries Into Allies, and so I want to just ask you, right at the outset, so are you suggesting that it's possible for all of us to turn people who are enemies into our friends and supporters' Because frankly, I've got to be honest, that sounds a little bit nuts. I mean I feel like I'm an amenable guy, but I've had people that you just don't see eye to eye with throughout life, and I can't imagine how you can take people who you just frankly don't get along with and turn them into supporters. So tell me, how is this even possible'
Bob Burg:Well, I think there's a time and place for everything, and not everyone is supposed to necessarily be our ally. Hopefully we can respectfully disagree with people if we have to. But no, this is really meant for the situations where it's someone who, for whatever reason, happens to be standing in the way of your sense of happiness, whether it's business, personal, what have you. And that there is a way that you can be able to turn that potential adversary or current adversary into an ally. But again, as you say, you make a very valid point. It's not going to happen with everyone.
John Corcoran:Yeah. And actually kind of a related question to that is, you know, it's a big world, right' We've got billions of people here, and so why devote the mental energy to trying to convert someone who's an adversary into an ally' I mean in today's day and age, can't we just disregard them or choose to live our life in a different way' I mean I realize everyone has different circumstances. Maybe you work in a job and you've got an adversary in your own organization. But why bother turning our adversaries into allies'
Bob Burg:Well, it's not the billions of people out there that we're looking to do that with. First of all, most of them aren't our adversaries. Most of them are people we're never going to meet. And it's only the people who there is a reason for turning them into an ally, that's the one. Hey, it might be that customer service representative, John, who, if you're like I am, you threw away your receipt or you lost your receipt and you have to return something, and you see a big sign over their desk that says 'Absolutely positively no returns without receipts.' And this person, he might be a nice guy or nice woman, but they're not equipped to know to deal with someone so that it works out for everyone involved.
So you do need to be able to work with this person in a way that you attain the satisfaction you want, and at the same time, you help that person feel good about themselves, and that's going to increase your odds ' first it's the right way to be, but it's also going to increase your odds of this person going out of their way for you. It might be the boss you need to ask for a raise, and this boss might be a nice person. But they're not necessarily going to give you a raise because you need the money. It might be it's when you're in a selling situation, and the prospective buyer might be a nice person, but they're not going to buy from you unless they feel there is sufficient value in doing so, and that's the only reason they should buy from you.
So we need to ' but here's the interesting thing. There was a baseball player named Sadaharu Oh. He was the all-time leading home run hitter, not only in Japanese professional baseball, but all time. More than Babe Ruth, more home runs than Hank Aaron, more home runs than Barry Bonds. And he had a great saying. I just thought this was so profound. He said, 'I never saw the opposing pitcher as my adversary, but rather as my partner in hitting home runs.' And to me, the interesting thing ' it's not that the opposing pitcher saw himself as his partner in hitting home runs, but Sadaharu Oh saw it that way.
In that same way, when we can take a person who, for whatever reason, might be difficult or might be adversarial or might be, for whatever reason, standing in our way, and be able to win them over and be able to help them come around to being part of the solution rather than being part of the problem, our level of success is going to be much higher.
John Corcoran:So the first thing that comes to mind in the scenarios you've laid out there ' you mentioned a customer service representative where you're trying to maybe get a refund and you don't have your receipt, and you're trying to get a little bit of flexibility around the policies that they have written on the wall. Or you're asking a boss for a raise. The first thing that comes to mind is our own emotions. Because we tend to get very emotional about trying to persuade that person to do what it is we want to do. Or maybe that person's being kind of rude, and so we get upset that they're being rude. So how do you deal with your own individual, personal emotions'
Bob Burg:Oh, that's such a great question. And that's the first principle of ultimate influence that we go through, is control your own emotions. Early in the book, I quote a saying from the sages who asked, 'Who is a mighty person'' And they answered, 'That person who can control their own emotions and make of an enemy a friend.' So why is that so important' Why is it so difficult to control our emotions' Because we're human beings. As human beings, we are emotional creatures. We like to think we're logical, and to a certain extent, of course, we are. But we're pretty emotion-driven. We make major decisions based on emotion, and then we back up those decisions with logic.
We rationalize, which simply means we tell ourselves rational lies. And we do that in order to justify that emotion-based decision we just made that we know we shouldn't have made. Well, emotions can also get in the way when, as you say, you have a situation, an adversarial situation, and you let your buttons get pushed by something that person says or does, consciously or unconsciously they do. They may not be trying to. And you let yourself become angry, mad, sad, helpless, depressed, what have you. Well, when our emotions control us like that, not only can we not be part of the solution, we're so wrapped up in the problem that nothing good is going to happen out of that.
Now with that in mind, I'm not in way saying that we should forego our emotions. As human beings, we are emotional creatures. So foregoing our emotions, trying to deny our emotions would be absolutely illogical. Okay' So no, we don't deny ' our emotions are a great part of our lives. They bring us joy. They bring us pleasure. They make life happy and meaningful. It's that we need to simply be in control of our emotions. They need to be working for us, rather than being our master. One of my great friends and mentors, Dande Scumachi ' I love what she says. She says, 'By all means, take your emotions along for the ride, but make sure you are driving the car.'
And I think that's really what it's about, John. As long as we are in control of our emotions, as opposed to they being in control of us, now we're acting out of strength and consciousness, as opposed to being reactionary.
John Corcoran:So it sounds like in terms of how to control our emotions, it's about being mindful, being aware of our emotions, the role that they play, being a little more Zen, maybe some deep breathing techniques. I can think of myself negotiating to buy a car in the past. Sometimes I get emotional about the games that a car buyer might ' or a car seller might play, and just getting really upset in the process. And I know that those emotions get in the way. So what advice do you have for people for controlling their emotions'
Bob Burg:Well, the first is just by understanding that it's an issue. Because if someone doesn't realize they have an issue with that, that it is an issue, that it's something that's holding them back, they're never going to take the steps to work on it and improve on it. So once they understand it's an issue, now they can come up with a game plan. And one of the best things you can do ' and let's say for example that ' not you, but one has an anger issue, has an anger problem. And they just really ' when somebody says or does something that pushes their buttons, they just jump down that person's throat, and they realize it's not a good way to do business, it's not a good way to have relationships, to live life.
It's keeping them from being as effective as they could be. So the first thing after understanding it is saying, okay, let's take situations ' let's actually rehearse ' let's in our mind's eye, look at situations that are probably going to come up because they have before, probably will again. You probably even know the people they will come up with. But even if not, that's okay. And imagine that happening. Imagine that happening, and instead of you reacting to this situation and to this person, see yourself just handling it beautifully.
See yourself being calm, not interrupting that person, listening to that person, and coming back, responding with the perfect language, which we'll talk about later on as we get into communicating with tact and empathy. And just handling it beautifully and seeing it work out well. Now practice that like an astronaut would practice a mission. You know how they simulate missions hundreds of times before they actually go up in space, so that when they're finally up in space and something happens, they're not caught by surprise. They've been there. They've done that. They know what to do.
Now is it the exact same' Seeing it in your mind and practicing it as it is in real life' Not exactly the same, but close enough. We know that the subconscious cannot tell the difference between something that is real, that has happened, and something that has been consciously suggested. So yes, it absolutely does work. Now the next time this happens, and you do handle it just fantastically, take pleasure in that. And understand that if you've done it once, you can do it every time. However, know that as a human being, you won't do it correctly every time. You will make mistakes. You'll mess up. We all do.
And when that happens, you can feel a little bad about it if you want, but don't put yourself in a whole guilt trip because again, you're a human being, a growing, learning organism that's looking to improve, and will get better, will do it better the next time.
John Corcoran:That's great advice. And I remember when I was in law school, we took a negotiation class, and the way you describe this, it's such an important issue, is really almost something that should be taught in schools so that people know how to control their emotions because they can have such a big impact on your career, on your business, absolutely. So let's move on to the next principle of ultimate influence, which is understanding the clash of belief systems. And sometimes, the other person has a conscious or unconscious set of beliefs, experiences, ideas, and you disagree or you don't see eye to eye. Tell me about this principle.
Bob Burg:And the biggest challenge is not even knowing about that difference. What is a belief' Well, I define a belief as a subjective truth. In other words, it's the truth as you or as I understand the truth to be, which means it's not necessarily the truth. It is our truth. Now sometimes our truth and the truth are the same, but many times, not. And we don't even know this because we all as individuals, we see the world through a certain lens, a paradigm, and model. Really it's an unconscious operating system. We don't even know it's running us. This is what I call the belief system.
And the belief system is really a combination of upbringing, environment, schooling, news media, television shows, movies, popular culture, cultural mores, everything we touch, taste, hear, see, smell ' every experience that comes into our life is part of our belief system. However, John, for most of ' I would say all of us ' by the time we're little more than toddlers, our basic belief system is pretty much established. And everything we experience after that is simply added on to that basic premise.
So people grow up, they live their lives, not even understanding that everything they think, everything they feel, everything they say, everything they do is based on this belief system or operating system that they don't even know they have. Now take it a step further. This person with whom you are about to have this interaction, they're coming from their own belief system, and they're not any more conscious of it than we are of ours. Right'
John Corcoran:No wonder we have ' negotiations can just break down.
Bob Burg:Right. Exactly. And as human beings, we all tend to think ' we all believe that everyone else pretty much sees the world the same basic way as we do. I mean how could it be any different' It's all we know. This is why you'll hear people say things like, 'Oh, everybody feels that way. Or nobody likes that.' Or you've probably heard someone say ' maybe you've said ' I know I have far too many times, 'I would never treat someone that way.' Right' Well we wouldn't if it's not congruent with our belief system. But it is with theirs.
So what we need to do is not so much understand that other person's belief system ' they probably don't understand their own belief system ' we simply need to come to grips with the fact that they have a different belief system than we do. And as long as we understand that and respect that, now we can create the context of a win-win situation.
John Corcoran:Okay, great. I love that. So the next point in your five different principles of ultimate influence is one that I really like, acknowledging their ego. Because so often you have ' let's say you're dealing with someone who is a customer service representative, and maybe they don't like their job too much. You know, maybe this is their little area of power that they exercise, right'
Bob Burg:That's right.
John Corcoran:And so it's important to acknowledge that they get some pride. Perhaps they have some ego in the role that they play, and belittling them or talking down to them is not going to help you, correct'
Bob Burg:Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And they go through this all the time. Someone especially who's maybe not even treated particularly well in their personal life, who now has this bit of power, hey, they can make your life miserable. And so we need to ' not just because we want to be able to attain satisfaction, it's just the right way to be, to treat people well. And we need to understand that they do have an ego and we have an ego. And it's a very powerful force. Ego itself is neither good nor bad. It just is. I mean the ego is literally the I, it's that sense of ourself that knows we're a unique individual.
And like emotions, when we're in control of that ego, great things can happen, and we can ' it's when the ego begins to take over. And often, if you're in a situation with someone, where they're saying or doing things that are very counterproductive, that are hurtful to themselves, as well as everyone else, there's a good chance that their ego has taken over and taken control. And we need to be able to acknowledge that. I really believe that 90 percent of being able to move a person to a particular way of thinking or doing or acting, is how you make them feel about themselves.
If people feel good about themselves and good about you, they're much more likely to commit and agree with your ideas. If they feel lousy about themselves, and they associate that with you, what do you expect' In so many people you just see this all the time, that they just don't acknowledge that person's ego. They just don't treat that person with a genuine, authentic respect.
John Corcoran:So how do you deal with someone who's got a hyper-inflated sense of ego'
Bob Burg:The key is that you need to be able to establish a sense of trust with them. One of the underlying principles, I think, in every book I've written, is the saying, 'All things being equal, people will do business with and refer business to those people they know, like and trust.' And trust is such a vital important part of the influence process because it's only when someone trusts that you have their best interests at heart, are they likely to let go of that defensiveness and that ego. So when someone's ego is getting away from them and they have a sense ' and they don't have any trust in you, and you say, 'Hey, you know, I really think you're letting your ego get the best' ' oh ' right'
But if they have some trust in you and know, then you can say something in a kind and tactful way such as, 'May I share something with you that I think might be helpful'' when they say ' yeah ' and you say, 'You know, I have a lot of respect for you and your acumen in business and what you do. It seems a little bit ' and it could just be me' ' this is an I message and it could just be me ' 'That you might be letting some of your personal feelings' ' I wouldn't say ego ' 'Some of your personal feelings possibly get in the way of making a decision that might be more constructive.'
John Corcoran:I like the way you phrased that.
Bob Burg:Yeah, so now we're just ' but there's got to be that trust, and that's why it's so important to be able to really have a genuine ' I would say the best person I've ever seen when it came to people skills ever, is my dad. And to me, his most powerful people skill was a genuine and authentic interest in bringing value to others. In helping other people feel genuinely good about themselves.
John Corcoran:Next point. I like this one as well. Set the proper frame, but I want you to explain what you mean by this principle. Because I have a couple different ideas about what it might mean, but I want to hear your words first.
Bob Burg:Sure. That's always great to ask ' that's a perfect influence principle, to ask someone to explain what they mean. Because again, definitions differ. And I define a frame as the foundation from which everything else evolves. Quick example from the book was the time I was in a Dunkin' Donuts store, and there was a little boy, probably 2, 2 ', 3 years old, who was running around the store. And his parents called him over to their table, and as he began to walk toward them, he took a spill on the floor. He slipped, he fell. He didn't hurt himself. He didn't fall hard, but you could tell by the look on his face he was surprised. He was shocked. He knew that wasn't supposed to happen.
So immediately he looked at his mom and dad to find out, okay, what's the interpretation here' What did that just really mean' And I truly, truly believed, John, that had his parents gotten panicky and upset, you know, 'Oh no, are you okay'' he would have started to cry. But the mom and dad just handled it beautifully. They applauded and they smiled and they laughed, and they said, 'Oh, how fun. What a good trick that was,' and immediately, he began to laugh. What the parents did is they created a positive frame from which he could operate.
And we can do that whenever we meet someone new, whether it's through a genuine smile or the words we use or our open body language or whatever. What's key is to be able to reframe someone else's already negative frame. Can I give you a quick example'
John Corcoran:Yeah, absolutely.
Bob Burg:Let's say you need to speak to a supervisor because the person at the desk wasn't able to get you what you needed, and of course, you were polite, respectful, but he goes back and says, 'There's a customer that needs to talk to you,' and this manager or supervisor, been in their business ten years, they hate dealing with people. They think everyone's a complaining person. Typically when they go out, that person's ready to jump down their throat. So they go out there with their game face on. I mean they have to be polite, but they're ready to quote the rule book and not get you want you want, maybe even in a passive-aggressive type of way.
But when you go out there, rather than being that person who says, 'I can't believe [inaudible] [00:20:40]. I've been a customer' ' right' Instead you have a genuine smile, your hand's outstretched, you step forward to them, and you say, 'Hi, Mr. Jones. Bob Burg. Thank you so much for taking a moment of your time. I know you're very busy.' Boom, you've just reset the frame from being adversarial to being one of two allies who are simply looking for a good outcome. And you become ' you're the type of person who's a pleasure for this person to work with, and the type of person they want to please. So you reframed the situation.
John Corcoran:Okay, so here's what came to mind when I was thinking that setting the proper frame was the idea of price anchoring, which was a concept that I didn't really understand until a couple of years ago, and then I started to understand it better. And it's basically the idea of setting a price and then creating another price that's lower or higher, depending on what you're trying to negotiate. So let's say that you're a service provider and you say, 'Well you know, I would normally charge $4,000 for this, but you know, because I'd really like to work with you, I'll charge $2,000.'
And I never understood how psychologically, when we hear that first number, we think, oh, okay, that's the value. And then when you hear the lower number, you think, oh, well that sounds like a really good deal. It's a lot different than if someone were to say, 'Price for you, $2,000.' Completely different. But I think what you're describing with setting the proper frame is it's kind of like the relationship. It's the human version of that. It's saying, this is where we're going to be. Instead of an angry person, I'm going to be a happy person, and we're going to start from there.
Is that too a too far afield analogy'
Bob Burg:No, it's a great analogy. And again, when you think about a frame being the basic foundation, that's the same as what you talked about with the pricing frame. It's the same when there's a political argument ' and I know you have a long career in politics as a writer. You've written for President Clinton and former governor of California. And so you know that when you think of it, if you can set the proper frame, everything after that comes easy. If there's an argument '
John Corcoran:I think we lost you, Bob. It froze up. Are you there, Bob'
Bob Burg: Right, because then I [inaudible] [00:00:01] back that it was fine, that everything's a frame, and then I started to talk about politics, ow when you write a speech, the frame is everything because if you can get the other side, arguing within your frame, that sort of things.
John Corcoran:<span data-mce-type="bookmark" style="display: inline-block; width: 0px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 0;" class="mce_SELRES_start"></span>And I did want to ask about politics, so I'll get to that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Okay, all right, so we'll pick back up. 3, 2, 1. Okay, so I did want to ask you, Bob, about one related concept, I think. When I heard the principle, set the proper frame, what I was thinking, I was thinking of this idea of price anchoring, which was something that I didn't completely understand until a couple years ago. It's basically the idea of, if you set a price, people will keep that price in their mind, and if you quote a separate price, then it will look like either a bargain or more expensive, based on the price they have in their mind.
So let's say that you're a service provider, and you say, 'You know what' I would normally charge $4,000 for this, but because I want to work with you, I'll charge you $2,000.' And they're thinking, wow, that's a really good deal because they were thinking it was $4,000. So it sounds like what you're talking about with the frame, it's kind of the human or the people version of that. It's saying, okay, I'm going to set this particular foundation, and I'm going to be happy instead of angry. Does that make sense' Or am I completely far afield here'
Bob Burg:No, it makes a lot of sense because they're just simply different ways to apply the concept of a frame. You certainly have a lot of experience in politics, having been a writer for President Clinton and for a former governor of California, and you know that when you are writing a speech, if you can frame it in such a way so that the opposition would, when they respond, have to work within the frame that you set, you're 80 percent there to winning the situation, if you will. The person who sets the frame or the person who buys into someone else's frame, that's how it goes. That's why one of the things we talk about is make sure you don't buy into someone else's frame.
Make sure you always question your premises in their premises. Let me give you an example or a frame. I remember when, as a kid, a common question was, 'When you grow up, do you want to be wealthy or happy'' Now what's the frame there' The frame is you can be one or the other, but not both. Now a kid usually isn't going to question the premise there, but if they were going to, it would be, they would ask, 'Well, why does it have to be one or the other' Can't I be both'' And it's the same when someone, as an adult, presents you with a choice of two things, whether it's philosophy or whether it's to make an appointment or whether it's this or a political idea.
You always want to ask the question of yourself, why does it have be this way' And you can also politely and respectfully ask them, 'Why would it be only those two choices' On what do you base that' Where did you come up with that information'' So the key is don't fall victim to someone else setting a frame.
John Corcoran:This is so brilliant because you see people make this mistake frequently, where someone else sets the frame, and then they fall into the trap, where they have that discussion and they don't realize that they need to actually move the discussion to another place. And we could come up with a zillion different examples from politics, absolutely. Because that's what it's all about. I mean two different political leaders running for one office. They set different frames and they try and have the discussion on their own territory.
Bob Burg:On their own ' right. Exactly.
John Corcoran:Yeah, but the final point, the fifth point that you have, is communicating with tact and empathy, which is something that honestly, some people struggle with. How do you be more tactful and how do you have empathy for the person that you're trying to turn into an ally'
Bob Burg:Sure. Well, let's look at tact. What is tact' My dad has always defined tact as the language of strength. And when I think of tact and being tactful, you know what comes to mind first, is when we need to correct someone, or we need to critique someone, or when we need to ' dare I be a bit politically incorrect and say constructively criticize someone ' not that we ever want to do that. Of course we don't.
But we're talking about the real world, not a fantasy world where everything's perfect and everyone does the right thing and says the right ' there are times we need to be able to teach, John, but we need to do so in such a way that not only is that other person not defensive toward us and resistant to our ideas, but they are open to us and they're more accepting of our ideas. Tact allows us to do this. And when you think of empathy, empathy is simply the identification with or the vicarious experiencing of another person's feelings.
It means that we might ' we may or may not know exactly how they feel because we all come from our own different experiences and belief systems, but we can certainly communicate that we understand they're feeling something, and that something is causing them distress. So when we speak tactfully and kindly and respectfully, we're able to attain the results we want in a way that serves everyone. Can I give you a quick example'
John Corcoran:Absolutely.
Bob Burg:Let's say that someone asks you to serve on a committee, and you don't want to. It doesn't really matter why, for whatever reasons you have, it's not something you want to do, and that's fine. You shouldn't do it unless there's a compelling moral reason to do it, probably it's not something you should do. We need to be able to say no to most things so that we can say yes to the things that we should say yes to. But we've been taught basically to say no in a couple of different ways. The first way has become very fashionable in the last few years. You hear it all the time. And that is, 'No is a complete sentence. Or just tell people no, and that's their problem.'
So people hear that at seminars or see it on TV, and they get all empowered. 'Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. Just tell people no.' And I cringe because I think, really' Is that what you're going to do' Just rudely tell someone no. First of all, it's rude. Secondly, you're probably turning a current ally into a potential adversary. They're never going to ask you to do something again. You're losing out on potential opportunities in the future. But the biggest reason to not say no like that is because it's simply incongruent with your values of treating people with kindness and respect.
So I don't think that's a good way, a productive way, a proper way to say no.
John Corcoran:So what's a better way' Especially if it's something that you really don't want to do'
Bob Burg:Well, and there's one more kind of negative way too, and that is to make an excuse. Well, I would, but I don't have the time. The challenge is, of course, you really do have the time. What you don't have is the desire. You don't [inaudible] [00:07:10]. And as human beings, we find the time to do what we want. So it's kind of a little bit of a fib, and when that person says to you in a compelling way, 'Well, time's not going to be an issue because' ' and they explain it perfectly, well now you either have to admit that you really were kind of not telling the truth because you don't want to do it. They're going to not have respect for you. You're going to feel badly about it.
Or to save face, what do you have to do' You take the assignment that you don't want to take, and that really doesn't work out well. So now let's look at how we can do in such a way that respects our boundaries, but also respects and honors the other person.
John Corcoran:I love this too because Bob, you personally, I'm sure, get doubtless requests for your time, for your energy, to contribute to different projects, and so I'd love to know how you deal with these things, these requests.
Bob Burg:Well, and I'm sure you do as well. Probably most of the people listening to this. So here's the way to do it. It's very simple and actually very easy. You simply say, 'Thank you so much for asking. While it's not something I'd like to do, please know how very honored I am to be asked.'
John Corcoran:Oh, that sounds great.
Bob Burg:Now what you've done is you've respectfully and gracefully ' you've thanked them. You've let them know that it's not something you choose to do, that it's not something that you want to do. You didn't make an excuse though, so you didn't give them something to hang on to and answer. You didn't have to justify anything. But you let them know that you were honored to be asked. Basically what you told them was, no, it's not something I want to do, but hey, I really appreciate being asked.
And if the person tries one time to overcome that ' you know, people will sometimes, especially if you've trained people to believe that you can be bullied or manipulated in some way, they might say, 'Oh, come on. But we really' ' you simply would, with a very pleasant smile, no emotion, other than a sense of kindness, you wait until they finish, and then you simply say, 'Oh, again, I appreciate the offer. It's not something I choose to do. But again, thank you so much. Please know how honored I am to be asked.' Boom. They will get the message right there. From then on, they can always ask. There's nothing wrong with asking. But when you say no, it simply means no.
John Corcoran:So two things. One, do you worry that by saying it's not something I want to do right now, that that person's going to be offended, that you don't want to do it with them' Or two, do you worry that they're going to view you as insincere because you have responded by saying, oh, you know, all these extra verbiage of I'd really love to do it with you, but I can't because I'm focusing on other things.
Bob Burg:Yeah, well let's look at the language. First remember I didn't really say want. I just said, 'Well, it's not something that I'd like to do,' or you could say, 'That I choose to do,' which is a little bit ' I think a little softer than I don't want to do it. So it's the way we say it too. But it's also that extra verbiage. And you're not making excuses. You're not saying it's something I don't want to do right now. You're not making any excuses or [inaudible] [00:10:10]. You're simply letting the person know it's not something you'd like to do, not something ' you can say not something I'm interested in pursuing.
But it's really the way you say it. But I'll tell you, in all the time that I've utilized this, both in emails and in person, and the many people I've taught to do the same, it absolutely works so very well. And I've had people compliment me on the way that I've turned them down. So no, it works.
John Corcoran:I'm transcribing what you said because I'm going to be using this in the future. One thing that I often say is, 'You know, I've got a variety of different projects that I'm focusing on right now, so I don't have the bandwidth to work on it at this time.' Is that making an excuse though'
Bob Burg:No, if that works for you and it's congruent with how you would communicate and it makes the point, then it's fine. The only thing is you're leaving yourself open to that person saying '
John Corcoran:When they come back two months later, right.
Bob Burg:Exactly. And to me, I don't want to have to keep going back and forth again. I want to kind of handle it right there, and my feeling is, as long as you handle it in a kind, tactful way, they're going to know that you are basically saying no. But you're doing it in a way that they can't possibly be offended, unless they really want to be offended, and then that's going to happen, I would imagine, from time to time because there's all sorts of people in the world. There's billions of people in the world, so someone ' but no, by and large, this really ' that exact language really works.
John Corcoran:That's excellent. Okay, I want ' a couple of quick scenarios that maybe you can play out for us. One is let's say you want to buy a product, and it's a little bit too expensive. It's more than you want to pay. You don't want to pay that much. How do you work with the salesperson without alienating them' How do you get them to budget a little bit on the price'
Bob Burg:Uh-huh. And again, remember throughout the whole buying process you've been very polite and kind and so forth, and you've shown great respect for this person. So there's already that sense that they're liking and trusting you. What you would say in that case is, 'You know, Dave,' ' or Patricia ' 'First I thank you for all the time you've invested in helping me. As much as I love the idea of doing business with you right now, I'm afraid at this price point, I can't justify going ahead and making the purchase.' So when you say I can't justify, that's an I message, so it puts the onus ' you're not insulting them.
You're not saying, 'Hey, with what you're charging' ' you know' 'I can't justify making the decision to go ahead.'
John Corcoran:That's good.
Bob Burg:So now ' right ' and now you don't say anything, and wait to see if they will say, 'Well, what if we could' ' and so forth. But if they don't say anything, and you really, really would like this product, but you do need it at a lower price, wait to see if they say anything, and if they don't, you might say, 'Is there anything you could do in terms of the price to bring it down so it's more affordable'' Or bring it down a bit.
John Corcoran:It's like you're working with them, just like the pitcher.
Bob Burg:Exactly.
John Corcoran:Or yeah, the batter.
Bob Burg:And if they possibly can, they will. Sometimes they can't. They really don't have a choice and you're going to have to either walk away or come up with the money to pay it. But really, what this does is it creates that frame that if they can possibly work this out for you, and make it happen, they will.
John Corcoran:Okay. And then the other thing I wanted to ask about, which we touched on earlier, was politics. So this is like the ultimate adversarial situation. So many people. It's such a divisive issue. People ' friendships have been ruined over having political disagreement. So please wade us into that thicket. How do you persuade someone, either persuade someone or at least not make someone into more of an adversary if you disagree on politics'
Bob Burg:Yeah. John, you've seen, as well as I have, some of the online discussions on Facebook, where you have all this vitriol and all this horrible back and forth, insulting people. Have you ever noticed that when someone writes a response to someone ' let's say on Facebook ' and they say something like, 'Are you just insane' Are you stupid' Are you trying to ruin this country and totally bring us to financial collapse,' and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Ever notice that the person being accused never responds by saying, 'You know, you're right. I never thought of it that way. I really am just ruining this whole thing. I'm going to agree with you now and take your side of the issue.'
It just doesn't happen. You cannot insult someone into taking your point of view. And you're probably not going to, when someone is so far apart in basic philosophy, you're probably not going to turn that person. However, what you can do ' there's two things. One is for people who aren't totally in philosophical disagreement with you, and they are open to being persuaded to your political philosophy, by showing kindness and respect, you're much more likely to be able to bring them over to your side. But there's also something else. Know that in a lot of these conversations, while the two or three or four people going back and forth in this vitriolic way are very set in their ideas, there's a whole lot of people lurking and not participating in the conversation, but they're still looking to see the information that's being provided.
And if you've got one person who's poisonous in their insults and so forth, whatever they say is going to be really dismissed by those people who are kind of in the middle, looking to decide which way to go. And the person who presents their argument tactfully and kindly and respectfully, that's the person whose views are going to be more apt to be taken. So here's one thing you can do in helping to reframe this kind of vitriolic type of argument. Let's say someone says, 'People like you who don't believe in blah, blah, blah, blah, you're heartless and you're cruel and you're ruining this country by so and so, so and so.'
Now rather than letting your ego get caught up and insulting this guy with the [inaudible] [00:16:30] attacks, that again, do nothing but create distance, what you want to do is say something along the lines of, 'Well first, just by what you're saying, it sounds ' I can tell you're the type of person who really cares about benefiting the most people you possibly can, and I certainly respect that.' Then you say, 'Like you' ' and here's the exact language, 'Like you, I want to live in a country where people are able to blah, blah, blah,' and you basically go to what ' the same ' basically it doesn't matter how far left or right or libertarian or this or that, we want people to be thriving and be healthy and be happy and be prosperous and be ' it's just the way we feel is best to get there is different.
So it's like, 'Like you, I want to live in a country where people are free to blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever it happens to be.' And say, 'I think our biggest differential is how we would suggest getting there.' Okay' So now what you've done is you've reframed this. This person, if they're really a poisonous person, they're not going to buy into that and be as polite as you are. But everyone else is going to see this, and everyone else is going to have more respect for you, for making your point in a way that respects the other person and respects the process.
John Corcoran:I love your approach to that, and thank you, Bob, for sharing that. I love your positivity and optimism and backing up some of your philosophies here today with all of us, with some real specific approaches and specific scripts that people can use. So thank you so much for that.
Bob Burg:My pleasure.
John Corcoran:And I want to wrap things up with our final question, which is, let's pretend that this is like your Oscar speech. You just got an Academy Award or whatever award of your choice ' you're at an awards show, and you've achieved a lot in your career. You've written a number of books. You've given all kinds of keynote speeches all over the world. So who would you like to thank' What are the relationships that have been instrumental to your success' Of course it's family, but other mentors, colleagues, friends, tell me.
Bob Burg:Absolutely it begins with my parents. Having a mom and dad as I have, who set such a wonderful example, that's priceless. I've also been very fortunate to have mentors along the way, John, that have just been there at the right time, and were so helpful and so kind. And I would also absolutely have to thank my business partner, Kathy Tagenel, who is just a brilliant and wonderful human being, who runs the business and allows me to do the things that I do best.
John Corcoran:Oh, great. Okay, good. Very good. Thank you, Bob, and where can people learn more about you'
Bob Burg:Well, they can come to burg, B-U-R-G, .com. While there, if they like, they can subscribe to my Influence and Success Insights. When they do, they will get Chapter 1 of the Go Giver, which I co-authored with John David Mann, as well as my book, Adversaries Into Allies, Go Givers, Sell More and Endless Referrals, the first chapters, so they can see if they like it and so forth. They can also connect with me on social media, right through the home page. Everything is set up there. Again, Kathy did a wonderful job of setting all that up.
John Corcoran:Good job, Kathy. All right, Bob, thank you so much for taking the time.
Bob Burg:Oh John, thank you for everything you do. I appreciate you.
John Corcoran:All right. And '

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