Travis Hoechlin: 12:12
Yeah, I think, I mean, it was, you know, as junior high, high school days. So I don’t know how much I really paid attention as far as the ins and outs of it, but I just think the entrepreneurial bug was certainly planted. And, you know, when I came time to go to college and figure out what I wanted to major in, you know, I asked him what I should do. He said, own your own business at some point, you know, don’t work for somebody else. Go own your own business. That’s it. And so that always stuck with me. And so here we are. I am approaching 50. It definitely was good advice.
John Corcoran: 12:47
And now in the early days when you’re starting RizeUp Media, you know, one of the challenges is like selling a website is one thing or a marketing plan or something like that, and then fulfilling it. It’s another matter. How did you manage to do that? Or did you and a co-founder divide up responsibilities, like how do you focus on both at the same time?
Travis Hoechlin: 13:08
Yeah. So great question. So I have two partners. The two of us are more like sales guys. And our third partner, George is kind of what we call the brains behind the operation and the builder.
And how it kind of worked, how we started was that we found an agency. I don’t even know if he would define himself as an agency at that point, a guy who could build a website and do SEO. And so we just threw everything over the fence to him and helped, you know, us get a running start until we could build up our, our, our book of business or our business where we could bring it in house. And so the three of us, I jumped first from our corporate, my corporate job built it out, and then my business partner was supposed to come six months later. He ended up built.
It grew so quickly that he actually jumped a month later. And then eight months later, we brought our third partner in. Yeah, as revenue grew. But the key was finding somebody who already knew how to do it and could and could handle the back end of things as we just ran. The advantage we have is that we could sell.
Right. And we had relationships, and we had relationships that we worked with folks for ten years that we had credibility with. And so we’re fortunate enough, blessed enough, lucky enough, whatever you want to call it to where people trusted us to come with us. When we hung up a shingle, they wanted to come with us.
John Corcoran: 14:36
Yeah. Now the law is so broad. There’s, you know, there’s firms that do bankruptcy and personal injury and defense side versus, you know, plaintiff’s side. And there’s criminal law. There’s so many different areas.
Did you eventually figure out a vertical that you want to focus on, or did you find that what you do is broad enough that you could do any build any law firm website for any law firm?
Travis Hoechlin: 14:59
Yeah. And any, any type of law that really doesn’t make any difference there. I would say our niche is solo practitioners up to about ten attorneys is probably where 95% of our we work with 515 16. I think last count firms across the country and probably 95% of them are solo practitioners, up to about ten attorneys, because those are the ones who need help. Right.
The big humongous firms really don’t market online. They have a website that they make, you know, they think of it as a fancy brochure online, but they’re really not. Marketing is where we can help and bring in calls and leads and so forth. But defense firms typically don’t market too much as far as, you know, insurance defense firms or something like that.
John Corcoran: 15:46
But it’s more competitive on the plaintiff’s side.
Travis Hoechlin: 15:48
Yeah, the plaintiff’s side. So a lion’s share of what we do is personal injury, work comp, family law, criminal law, employment.
John Corcoran: 15:57
Estate and that. And that, frankly, is the more entrepreneurial side because they’re, you know, they’re they’re really putting their business on the line. If they take on all bad cases and they don’t pay them off for them, they’re going to run out of money very quickly.
Travis Hoechlin: 16:09
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
John Corcoran: 16:13
And talk a little bit about search engine optimization. A lot of changes happened over the last ten years. Now we’re in the dawn of AI as we record this in the middle of 2025. And increasingly people are using LLMs, using AI in order to research, you know, law firms and decide what law firm they want to hire. Talk a little bit about that, how that’s changed.
Travis Hoechlin: 16:34
Yeah. I mean, as we sit here today, I mean, Google is still the main player. And certainly, you know, the elephant in the room is on the horizon, is AI. And where, where who’s going to win that battle and how do you get your clients ranked on those if they are indeed where they’re searching. And so we’re still kind of have our ear to the ground to see testing out some different things to see where that’s going to go.
And I’m optimistic. I mean, listen, at the end of the day, you know, you know, Jason Swenk, he I thought he put it perfectly a number of months ago. He said, “Listen, what are you?” And I say this to our clients too. You know, there’s going to be a lot of uncertainty, a lot of change in what’s going on.
But what do you know for certain five years from now, ten years from now, that our clients are going to need help getting new business in the door, right? They can only scale so fast on referrals and networking and things of that nature, right? All every attorney I’ve ever talked to says I get my my, my best business from referrals. Well that’s great. And that’s probably never going to change necessarily.
But you can’t scale your business next quarter. You know, 50% on referrals. You can’t have no control of that. Whatever comes in comes in. So they’re going to need help with marketing, whether it’s on Google or Facebook or Meta or AI or what have you.
And so I think, you know, for us, it’s just positioning us ourselves in a, in a place where we can help people, where we that we do what’s right for folks, and then whatever changes and have our ear to the ground and have our, you know, tentacles out of where, you know, like the book, you know, who moved my cheese? Where’s the cheese going to go? And let’s be first.
John Corcoran: 18:17
Yeah.
Travis Hoechlin: 18:17
To be able to help people bridge that gap.
John Corcoran: 18:20
You know, it strikes me we were talking about baseball. There’s a lot of similarities between baseball and sales. The best hitters in the game of all time. The Hall of Fame struck out. They failed seven out of ten times at the plate.
And yet they need to just stop, gather themselves and go back and do it again and again and again. Do you see similarities between those two, do you think? What makes you a good baseball player, you know, helps you to succeed in sales?
Travis Hoechlin: 18:50
100%. Like, kind of going back to your question, like, how did I gain credibility with attorneys not being an attorney or what have you? When that was when my mentor of mine hired me at that big box store company. I didn’t know anything about it, but I knew it was going to take a certain amount of meetings to figure out how to get a deal in the door. So like, let’s say it’s going to take 100, and maybe it was going to take ten till I got it, or maybe it’s going to take 100in my mindset.
It was like, let’s say it’s going to take 100. I can either space this out over the next year and then figure it out by the end of the year, or I can just go, you know, I looked at it as a bat, right? Like, if it’s going to take me a hundred at bats to get one hit, then let’s, let’s get these bats as quick as possible. Why spread this out over the next six, 12 months? Let’s spread it out over the next 60 days, and let’s fail a bunch of times.
And then so and then I’m going to pick it up and figure it out from there. And that’s really what I did. I was like, listen, it’s going to take me 100, 100 meetings with an attorney and look like an idiot, you know, a hundred times. So be it. Let’s get it out of the way and take, you know, failure is a friend, you know, fail forward, fail quickly, fail fast and figure it out. And so that’s what that’s what we did.
John Corcoran: 20:06
And maybe also take a shot before every discovery call.
Travis Hoechlin: 20:09
That’s right. Right, right.
John Corcoran: 20:10
You never know. It might work. Right.
Travis Hoechlin: 20:13
You know, try that.
John Corcoran: 20:15
There have been those who have tried. I’m not.
Travis Hoechlin: 20:17
I’m.
John Corcoran: 20:17
Sure that it would work that way. Kind of a problem. I also want to ask about, you know, it’s always interesting to me kind of the tension between, you know, if you deliver a solution. And the solution is like online visibility. Does that mean that as a company, your prospects expect that that would be the way that you also get your clients often isn’t the case.
Like for example, like Google, right? The biggest online company out there, they send postcards to prospects, right? You know, you think, oh, maybe they’d get all their leads online, but they don’t because sometimes it makes sense to do something different. So talk a little bit about like you know, what you do to acquire clients and is it all online visibility or is it not?
Travis Hoechlin: 20:59
You know the ironic part, I tell clients this all the time when I’m sitting in front of an attorney, I’m all I know how to grow your business better than I know how to grow mine. Because that’s what we sit.
John Corcoran: 21:09
Kind of a situation, right?
Travis Hoechlin: 21:10
You know, like, yeah, there’s no local service ads for folks like us. Yeah, right. That PPC is not as fruitful for someone like us as it is for a divorce attorney or family law attorney or a criminal defense attorney. And so yeah, it’s, it’s much, much different. What was the question again I’m sorry.
John Corcoran: 21:34
Well, just you know, it’s interesting like when a lot of times companies that provide a solution that’s like online visibility, for example, then you would expect that that company would use those tools on themselves. But I find that’s not always the case. You know, a lot of times companies, you know, they might zig when they’re zagging or their solution is one thing, but they do something else in order to get their clients. So I’m just wondering what has worked for you. Like, for example, I know you’ve done different things, like gifting and stuff like that. So just kind of curious what your thought process is around that.
Travis Hoechlin: 22:07
Yeah, our, our biggest success is number one, we’ve hired sales reps. We have a team of ten at this point that all of them have ten plus years of experience in the legal field, legal marketing field.
John Corcoran: 22:20
Oh, interesting. So you don’t hire people outside of that area of expertise.
Travis Hoechlin: 22:23
We haven’t had to go there yet. No. Our.
John Corcoran: 22:26
Even though you started out with no experience.
Travis Hoechlin: 22:28
Yeah yeah yeah yeah. That was so we’ve. Yeah. So we’ve, we’ve been able to, to hire folks in the industry that we knew and worked with before. And then we go to a lot of trade shows. We’ll probably work close to 70 trade shows or conferences this year.
John Corcoran: 22:46
Like exhibiting at these trade shows.
Travis Hoechlin: 22:48
Having a booth, shaking hands, all that kind of stuff, and really getting in front because, you know, we get contacted all the time by companies, oh, we can get you appointments with attorneys and blah blah, blah, and we fall for it every single time. So if you’re listening to this, you’re going to.
John Corcoran: 23:02
Contact me now.
Travis Hoechlin: 23:04
We’ll fall for it again. And you know, but it just never worked out, you know, whether it’s email marketing or whatever and whatever spin on it is. And because it’s for our why, there’s not a ton and tons of competition in our market. It’s just hard to get in front of attorneys. There’s no replacing knocking on a door.
Sticking out a hand. Shaking. Shaking hands and going to where they’re at. And so it’s been our biggest win. Yeah.
John Corcoran: 23:34
How many of those trade shows are you going to yourself personally or is it all your team.
Travis Hoechlin: 23:38
No, it’s mostly my team I’ll probably go to. Half a dozen a year, maybe. Maybe I will get it. Probably. Don’t get to a dozen.
It just doesn’t. We’ve grown so quickly over the last few years that I find that it’s not my best use. Best use of my time to go there. I’ll go to a few, depending on the conference or what have you. But we have a very, very senior seasoned team that, you know.
Yeah, I’m not doing anything unless I can speak or do something like that. Yeah. There’s really no reason for me to go there.
John Corcoran: 24:11
Do you still do any sales yourself or have you removed yourself entirely from that?
Travis Hoechlin: 24:16
Removed myself entirely. I still have a book of business that I personally manage at this point, but any new sales that come in are passed out to our reps. I certainly do my fair share of sales calls with them, but certainly don’t take on any new clients personally.
John Corcoran: 24:33
So you’re participating and then how do you approach that when you’re participating and you’re the CEO? Do you try to stay quiet, you know, and try and let them take the lead?
Travis Hoechlin: 24:42
I have the gift of gab. It’s very hard.
John Corcoran: 24:44
I can’t, I can’t see you being quiet.
Travis Hoechlin: 24:46
Yeah, no it doesn’t, but no, it doesn’t happen. But I try to, you know, depending on the situation and the rep typically taking the lead and certainly edifying the reps because.
John Corcoran: 24:58
Yeah.
Travis Hoechlin: 24:58
I’m not going to be the one in the client’s, you know, day to day by any stretch. And nor do they want me to because I, I’m, I’m stretched too thin.
John Corcoran: 25:07
Yeah. And do you have a model where the sales rep continues to have a relationship with that client? So. Oh, interesting. Okay, so.
Travis Hoechlin: 25:14
Every client has a sales rep and an account manager as their point of contact.
John Corcoran: 25:19
Okay.
Travis Hoechlin: 25:20
Now, depending on if they’re doing it, you know, because we build websites, we do SEO, we do social media, we do paper, we manage pay per click ads, and we do manage local service ads. And depending on social, they’ll have a point of contact with their PPC, they’ll have a designated strategist and as well as local service ads. But their main two points. So the rep does stay with the client.
John Corcoran: 25:42
Stay with them. Yeah. Does that was that hard to be that different from what you’d experienced personally when you’d done this at the big box firm. And no is what you’d done. Same thing. Yeah. Same model.
Travis Hoechlin: 25:53
Yeah. Because it’s, you know, in this internal debate that we have quite a bit is like, you know, those roles and that can an account manager be also the sales person. But we’ve just found that they just wear different hats. There’s a different personality. Yeah. Some people are farmers. Some people are hunters, you know that type of thing.
John Corcoran: 26:15
So you have to structure their compensation so they get, you Yeah, obviously a commission for the sale. But then there’s also some kind of trailing revenue that they get. So they remain invested in those clients. And they’re not just not just going out and hunting the next sale.
Travis Hoechlin: 26:29
Yeah. Because the sales person listens, there’s a, there’s a they want to grow the account because they’re compensated to do so. But more importantly, the clients typically want to scale. Right. They’re more times than not where they come into our ecosystem is not where they finish.
Right. They’re starting somewhere where they’re comfortable, where they’re seeing a return on their investment. And then we’re helping them scale. And so we’re making sure. So the salesperson is basically casting the vision of where we want to go and how we’re going to get there.
Right. The account manager is taking care of their current situation, any updates and things of that nature and handling any issues that are happening. But I want that salesperson or that consultant to do that consulting with the client, stay in, stay involved and really understand where they’re at. Helping them even though it’s beyond our job description and pay grade. You know, we have to get involved in their intake. Most attorneys are terrible at intake. None of them think they have this issue, by the way. So yeah, they’re listening to this. Oh no we’re.
John Corcoran: 27:39
Yeah we’re.
Travis Hoechlin: 27:39
Good on tell me they’re they’re they’re the exception. They’re very very good. Yeah. Right. But what we found is that they don’t realize how many calls they’re missing.
Right. They don’t. They have not had somebody consult them on how to do intake, you know, putting writing on a, on a sticky note and waiting for the attorney to get back from court is not a good sales, you know, conversion tool, you know, type of thing. So it’s really getting in there, rolling up our sleeves and coaching them up on how to. Because no matter if they’re not good at that, it doesn’t matter how good it doesn’t matter.
John Corcoran: 28:12
You can send them a ton of leads and they’re just going to return their call three days later and they’ve already got a client. They’ve already got the other person. The prospect’s already got a different lawyer working for them cuz.
Travis Hoechlin: 28:21
They’re used to attorneys and are typically used for referrals. So if I got referred to you John. Yeah. I’m going to call, leave you a message and wait for you to call me back because my alternative is to go online and write and start calling perfect strangers. Right.
What we do for folks is get them people to call perfect strangers. So it’s too easy for them to hit the back button and call somebody else. So we tell them, listen, if they’re hitting a voicemail or they’re leaving a message and you, it’s like, it’s like reeling a fish all the way up to the boat, to use a fishing analogy. Yeah. Clipping the line and telling the fish to wait there while we go get the net.
John Corcoran: 29:00
Yeah. Hold on a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that doesn’t work so well. So that sounds like something you figured out over time that you need to get involved in that process by necessity.
Travis Hoechlin: 29:11
Absolutely.
John Corcoran: 29:12
Yeah.
Travis Hoechlin: 29:12
Well, there’s no two ways around it. We gotta. We gotta help them with the whole process.
John Corcoran: 29:18
And there’s got to be situations where if you’re working for a solo or something like that, there just time strapped. They got lots of things on their plate. They’re juggling all this different stuff, and they can’t get back to the person within six hours. And so they lose their leads.
Travis Hoechlin: 29:31
100%. I mean, most solos there, you know, we tell them all the time, I’m a listener, you’re the host, you’re the waiter, you’re the bartender, you’re the manager, you’re the chef. So how do we do it? We figure out how to hire somebody internally. Do we go out?
Do we? We have preferred partners that we work with that help them answer the phone right, and do live call transfers and chat and these different things to help them, you know, help them make The mousetrap a little bit better.
John Corcoran: 30:00
Yeah, yeah. And now with AI tools, there’s more stuff too, you know. Yeah.
Travis Hoechlin: 30:05
Or at least let them kind of get back to a batting average. Like listen, if you’re not willing to hire an answering service, you’re not you’re just going to this is going to be your batting average. You’re going to answer two out of every five phone calls I send you. And there’s no bitching about, hey, this isn’t working. You know what I mean?
If you’re not willing to take just. No. And some folks are fine with that. They’re like, listen, just send me a bunch of calls and I’m going to grab, you know, the 5 or 10 that I can get to, and they’re going to hire me, and that’s going to be enough. And I just, I’m, I know I need to see ten pitches to get two hits. And. Yeah.
John Corcoran: 30:41
And so many lawyers just suck at sales like they do, it’s weird because for many years in the legal profession, advertising was not even legal. And so it’s kind of got this embedded attitude of like, oh, we can’t do sales, you know? And so there’s a real kind of apprehension towards doing things that lawyers kind of perceive as being salesy.
Travis Hoechlin: 31:02
Listen, my dad told me a long time ago, listen, everyone’s selling a product or a service and lawyers, to your point, a lot of lawyers. No, I’m not in sales. I’m a lawyer.
John Corcoran: 31:10
Yeah.
Travis Hoechlin: 31:10
No, no, no, You’re selling a service. Yeah. So you need to promote your service, and you need to sell. And you need to learn some of those skills. And if we need to help you because, you know, there’s some of our clients.
God bless them, I love them, you know that. I know that I need to send them 50 opportunities to get signed up for one case, right? You know what I mean? Because they’re just, you know, you can’t. That’s what their skill set is. Others, we send them, we send them ten opportunities. They’re going to close all ten of them.
John Corcoran: 31:37
Yeah.
Travis Hoechlin: 31:37
Yeah. We just got to figure it out. So that’s where recording the phone calls and monitoring everything and tracking everything so they know. So at least they’re aware of what’s going on and what’s happening and whether they’ll take our advice and kind of move to the next step and, and delegate some of those things and spend a few hundred dollars to, you know, make thousands. You know, it’s really trying to help them.
John Corcoran: 32:01
I’m curious, you mentioned earlier that you do have speaking opportunities. And as a, you know, former speech writer myself, I can appreciate how difficult it is to get on stage, you know, and speak with authority, especially in, you know, when you’re when you were newer in the field. Talk to me a little bit about that, about how you’ve worked on developing that as an authority builder in your industry.
Travis Hoechlin: 32:23
Still a work in progress. Still a work in progress. But yeah, I’ve done a few of them. We have our own, you know, developing our own podcast and things of that nature certainly has helped. Certainly having conversations like this just to.
John Corcoran: 32:36
You know.
Travis Hoechlin: 32:37
Figure out how to, you know, get my point across and things of that nature. But yeah, that’s kind of where.
John Corcoran: 32:42
Certainly doing it as much as possible, I think is one of the things that would be my top piece of advice is doing it just over and over and over again. I’ve probably done 1500 interviews now and, you know, still working at it, you know, still chip away at just like, you know, the best hitters in baseball, still working on, you know, becoming better, you know, taking it each one day at a time. I want to ask you about Covid. So your firm started not too long before Covid. And then what was it like in March of 2020 when that hit?
Do you like it? I was both in California, so California kind of was on the earlier edge. It hit Seattle and then it hit California and the Bay area. Were you like, was there a moment where you’re like, Holy crap, I might lose everything? Or what was that experience like for you?
Travis Hoechlin: 33:27
Well, certainly that, certainly that. So our first official day where I hit the eject button on the corporate world and left my cushy corporate gig was July 17th of 2019 and Covid hit. What, march something or other.
John Corcoran: 33:49
Like seven months later. Yeah yeah.
Travis Hoechlin: 33:51
Yeah. So seven months later, our landlord at the time was like, hey, you can’t come back here. The whole world is shutting down, right? And we just thought we made the worst decision on the planet, you know, and knock on wood or What we found was lawyers are pretty recession proof, and not outside of a few of our DUI attorneys that when the bar shut down, they were certainly scrambling to figure out where their next client was going to come from because, like one of my clients said, he’s like, you know, it’s really a really tough to get a DUI in your living room.
John Corcoran: 34:27
It’s true. That was one area of law that actually shut down, or in many ways, because there were many fewer DUIs. It’s better for society, worse for DUI attorneys.
Travis Hoechlin: 34:36
I forget how many clients we had at that point, but there were only 1 or 2 of those folks. Now, listen, it was also a good lesson to be diversified.
John Corcoran: 34:44
Yeah, true. Yeah.
Travis Hoechlin: 34:45
Geographically. Yeah. Because what folks in Southern California and California did was much different than in Texas and Florida. Yeah, right. Yeah. Like there’s just a whole difference. Yeah. Rules of engagement there.
John Corcoran: 34:59
Yeah. There’s some states. I talked to them today and they’re like, we didn’t really shut down in 2020. I’m like, you didn’t shut down 2020.
Travis Hoechlin: 35:04
Really For.
John Corcoran: 35:05
Sure. Florida. Texas or.
Travis Hoechlin: 35:07
Yeah, they’re like, let’s let’s keep rocking. I don’t know what you guys are talking about this cold going around, but yeah, but so that was helpful. But yeah, we certainly were worried there for a bit like how this works. But at the end of the day, what ended up happening is listening. Family law attorneys got real busy. Yeah. Their calls shot through the roof. When now folks had.
John Corcoran: 35:30
That’s true. Yeah, yeah. That’s right. All of a sudden they just stare at the person across from them, like, do I want to ride this out with you? I don’t think I do. Yeah.
Travis Hoechlin: 35:38
And in our personal injury attorneys, you know, there weren’t as many accidents. But like my dad and the one who was an ER doc said like we don’t see as many accidents but because people you know in LA you know in rush hour they’re driving 15 miles an hour on the freeway. Now, they were driving 150 miles an hour. Yeah. No cars there.
So it’s bigger. So yeah, it actually ended up being a couple blessings that came out for us. Blessings. Certainly we once envisioned our company, everybody under the same roof. And how you envisioned, you know, companies ten years ago or mortgage companies where everyone was in cubes.
And, you know, I look out my door and I can see all of my employees and talk to them. Well, when Covid hit, what we found was as we were growing and we’re here in Orange County, California, the blessing was it wasn’t a blessing at the time, but no one wanted to come and work in an office. People all wanted to work remotely. Well, that opened up an opportunity. Now we have 60 employees all over the country. Wow. Working from home?
John Corcoran: 36:38
Yeah.
Travis Hoechlin: 36:39
And we don’t necessarily have to pay Southern California prices. Yeah. Our talent pool isn’t limited to Orange County or the surrounding area. We can find we have amazing employees in New York and Iowa and Texas and wherever. Yeah, right.
And it allowed us to reach out and expand and and and figure out that whole world. How do you manage a team at a distance and things of that nature? And, you know, we have an office here. When we first got this office, we had four cubes out in our main area. Only one of them is filled.
I don’t know that we’ll ever fill the two two days a week. Two of them are filled. I don’t even think we’ll fill the other ones because we just don’t. It’s just like many, many, many businesses. I mean, our whole office complex, the parking lot, is probably 15% full in a given area.
I don’t know if I want to be a commercial landlord right now, but. Right. That’s certainly what we found is we’re able to get talent, amazing talent remotely. And our clients were pretty darn recession proof. You know, at the end of the day, that didn’t really affect the, the, the, the legal space that much.
John Corcoran: 37:59
Yeah, Yeah. Travis, this has been great. I want to wrap up with my gratitude question. So I’m a big fan of giving our guests a little bit of space here at the end to express gratitude to anyone who’s helped them along the way in their journey. Anyone, any peers, contemporaries or mentors that you’d want to acknowledge?
Travis Hoechlin: 38:17
I think as you as we’re talking about the early days, what was the big help is, you know, when when I jumped up, I, we were hopeful that maybe 10% of our clientele would come, come with us. And it ended up being about 75%, if not more. It’s probably at this point that almost all of them came with us because, you know, we worked for a big fortune 500 company and. I wasn’t arrogant enough to think that they would all come with me or they trusted me that much. And it actually turned out that they did.
And I was huge and most of them are still with us here six years later. Right. And so it was very, very thankful to any and all of them that came with us and trusted us, trusted us enough to make the leap and come with a startup. And I like to think they’re happy they did at this point, certainly, but.
John Corcoran: 39:13
They’re still there six years later. They probably are. Travis, this has been great. Where can people go to learn more about you and RizeUp Media?
Travis Hoechlin: 39:20
RizeUp Media.com. We don’t know how to spell over here, so we spell rise with a Z. And so yeah, RizeUp Media.com and or email me directly [email protected]. Feel free to reach out and if we can help you, we’d love to.
John Corcoran: 39:34
All the cool kids put rise in their company names, whether it’s with a Z or an S or whatever. That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. All right, Travis, thanks so much.
Travis Hoechlin: 39:42
I appreciate it. Thanks, John.
Outro: 39:46
Thanks for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast. We’ll see you again next time. And be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.