Peter Gerritsen | [Top Agency Series] Innovating and Leading a 100-Year-Old Agency Peer Group

John Corcoran 12:00

But no, no nice cold calling. I

Peter Gerritsen 12:01

know that anyone does.

John Corcoran 12:03

And I also found is that something that you needed to do with this position? Why would cold calling view?

Peter Gerritsen 12:09

Why? Well, I think especially back in 2008 2009, you’d be reaching out to agencies to try and join our our best and most successful members have come through a connection of some sort. Yeah, you they’ve heard me seeing me or another or they’ve met another member somewhere. And they’re recommended. That soft connection has been the most successful connection for Taan make sense?

John Corcoran 12:37

Yeah. Yeah. Talk. Let’s talk about agencies in general. Right now. There’s this larger digital transformation that’s happening that was accelerated by COVID, hitting in 2020. What are some top challenges that agencies are facing right now.

Peter Gerritsen 12:53

But I think COVID created a whole bunch of I would say, putting fire on the problem. Trying to manage a marketplace that’s in I wouldn’t call it freefall. It just it’s a no fault. We don’t know what we’re building, what’s going to happen. So some marketers are holding on to their money. agencies aren’t spending are getting it to be spent media doesn’t know what they’re going to do. The only media money that was happening was news money to be on that. Because there’s plenty on the news face that the digital transformation. I do believe in our business, the communications firms that don’t embrace digital to a certain extent, to a certain extent, they may not be wholesale in it, but they don’t have some part of their business that revolves around digital, they’re not going to be long term successful. But I do think you can be an expert at parts of this business and not have a digital forefront in front office and be successful for your clients. That comes to strategic thinking. I mean, smart people who understand how all this works, will be successful in advertising, and communications, and in research, and deciding how to help a business run. Marketing is a small piece of any business. But it’s the connection to customers and prospects. So the moat, you need to focus on that. That piece in order to keep your business going. Engineering can only do so much for business. Production and warehouses can only do so much. What’s What’s the adage marketing is the only part of a business that makes money for company marketing and sales. That, you know production doesn’t do that. The lawyers don’t do that. Much as you are the lawyer though. Don’t do it. They save money, they save money, they protect people. But it’s not the marketing. So yeah, I think what has happened in the past two years, especially, but even this whole digital transformation is you got to get out of your own way. And explore what’s out there that can make you better using the tools that exists, and not being afraid to experiment with the new things that happen. No, like you were to do the podcast thing when it first happened, and you’ve been doing this for so long. You jumped in and said, Okay, let’s just try this,

John Corcoran 15:40

you know, and that was certainly me in the beginning, for sure.

Peter Gerritsen 15:44

Yeah, and I think I think the best marketing firms are the ones that have a similar attitude. Let’s try this. Let’s see where this goes.

John Corcoran 15:54

Do you find that bringing the communities the different eight members together? That that fosters that spirit of let’s test stuff, let’s innovate. If one agency sees another agency that’s trying, you know, digital advertising or trying, I don’t know, marketing on TikTok or something like that, that that fosters and encourages a spirit of others doing it as well?

Peter Gerritsen 16:19

Yeah. I think that’s really the way Taan works. It’s live iteration up until past two years. And which will come back again, and this coming next year. But what helps is No, I, I use the term a lot, Coop the good, bad and ugly that’s shared amongst peers. So I’d be willing to try some new things. When I see a friend of a peer of mine that’s having success at something, and was willing to tell me what they did, and how it happened, and what’s good and bad about it. And what they made mistakes at. It’s like, oh, they’d give me a leg up, just get started on the same token. But we take a stand and say, somebody will try something, and they failed at it. And they’re willing to stand up in front of way, say, I screwed this up. And I think this is how I screwed it up. And I’m open to hearing from all of you, because I’m willing to bear my soul in front of you. Tell me where you think I screwed up, because I need to find that make sure I’m doing the right thing going forward. And that’s even, that’s, that’s even more rewarding to hear the good stuff, to have somebody stand up and say, Boy, I really had it wrong. I’m curious.

John Corcoran 17:39

I’m curious, it’s not easy to foster that spirit of connectedness where people feel comfortable, where it’s a safe space where they can open up where they can be honest, where they can share their failures, and advertising. Yeah. And you know, any industry really, I mean, then I’ve been around, you know, I’ve been in communities like that, or rooms like that before, where you can tell, it’s just like, people are not opening up at all here. And then I’ve been in other rooms where people are honest and open, and they’re even talking about personal things, or, you know, relationship issues, stuff like that. Or, you know, what are some things that you do in order to foster that kind of spirit? And to get people to open up?

Peter Gerritsen 18:18

Um, well, bad? No, I think in the live meeting format, it is easier, meaning that we put everybody in a room, and you give them the form of a stand up. And I’ve usually pick one or two to start that I know something’s going on, and warn them and say, I’d like you to talk about this. And what sets the right tone. Yeah. And why I purposely try and pick something that’s really cool. It’s happening. It’s new. And we don’t know what if it’s successful, or not yet, somebody who’s done something that they all want to hear about, because they know that there’s some nugget they might use. And then somebody who’s had is having either struggle or has failed. And I get a lot of those calls and or communications with members of Taan and frankly, outside of tan. I’ve a lot of agencies contact me and say, you know, I’m not sure what I’m doing. If I’m doing it right or not. Can you just let me walk you through it? And I believe me, I don’t know all the answers. In fact, I, I think every year I think I know less than I did before. Because there’s so much more new that it makes me think about how I’m falling behind in learning. And I keep trying to run faster and faster. But what I think I’ve retained is ability to look at something and say I need to know more about that. Or I need to move on to something else. I think I’m getting better. We all get hit with the emails constantly, it’s tough to come out. Finally, I think I’m fine getting better and saying, you know, this one’s not going to be for me right now. Thank you very much good luck haven’t have a great successful business, but it’s just not what happens or to do. And I don’t know, maybe it’s because I’ve gotten older, I’ve been more truthful to myself about the business. You know, I think I, I believe in less than the propaganda that exists that I did before. And, and I’m willing to tell those I work with, when I don’t know the answer. That and

John Corcoran 20:40

that’s hard, isn’t it? Right? And because of fear that, you know, if you say that to a group of your members that they’re like, Oh, what am I doing here?

Peter Gerritsen 20:48

Oh, yeah, it happens all the time. I mean, I know there’s a, there’s one going on this past week that kept getting asked about the specific issue that is proprietary. And so I won’t go into it. But I said, I don’t know what the answer is to this. I don’t know what even know where to go to find the answer. But I’ll start hunting around and see if I find something. And a couple of other members stepped up and said, You know, I might have somebody we can tap into for this. Because, you know, I, I might be a little bit of, you know, I wouldn’t call it the glue that holds it together. It’s more like I’m the central figure within this organization. But the more that members are involved, they see that it is not a hub and spoke, it’s a big wheel and crosses all back and forth across cultures and peoples. And the more you embrace the unknown from somebody else, the more you can get from them to make you better. You and I were talking earlier about what I this fascinating thing that I do, which is the International? Well, and

John Corcoran 22:03

yeah, and I do want to I want to ask you about that. Because you know, it’s right in the name Taan Worldwide, you definitely embraced the International House, but l element of it, you talk about the importance of there being members from different parts of the globe, you also personally love travel, like different cultures. So it’s a little bit of kind of a chicken or the egg thing, right? You know, like, I think you were drawn to, you know, the role because it would allow you to scratch that itch. And you’ve also definitely encouraged it seems but but from where you said, you, you know, people, it’s a cliche to say that the world is getting smaller and more interconnected. But do you see that? Have you seen that over the years? 

Peter Gerritsen 22:43

Um, yes, I know, I think it is smaller, because, you know, Teresa, recently and will happen again, the ability to get from one culture to another meaning going to another country, another place another language, another system, and be exposed to it is gets infinitely easier than it was when we were kids. Yeah. Just the fact that and I’ve done it many times, I got on a plane from Boston, and before Well, into the next day, I could be in Asia, still fascinates me, and I hit on it, you know, that I could be dead, tired, wake up and get off a plane, and I’m in Hong Kong, or I’m in Bangkok. And be happy about it, though they’re not feel. So I have a friend that I won’t name here. But he’s traveled internationally. And he rails against the fact that you can’t get a burger and a glass of whiskey in certain parts of the world. And it’s like, but there’s so much more. And I And he and I’ve had this discussion over and over again. And it’s like, yeah, that you got we as humans have got to embrace. There are things out there that we don’t know exist right now. Don’t you want to know what they are? And don’t you want to hear somebody speak in a language that you have no idea what’s coming out of them else. But this lilting, or this, this poetry sounds or music almost when you listen to somebody speak their language that you don’t understand. And you’re trying to cipher parts of it. But if you just sit back and just listen to it, it’s a beautiful sound. No matter what language it is. Even some of the Eastern Europeans it’s really harsh sound to it. There’s something beautiful about listening to it.

John Corcoran 24:45

And how do they see that helpful to the numbers in terms of kind of idea exchange? Oh, is it? Is it because there’s so much a common or is it just like an openness to new ideas?

Peter Gerritsen 24:59

I think Well, I do believe that we all should be exposed to different things that we’re not used to. And I think you need to be a fish out of water, in environments in places that make you sit back and judge who you are, what you are and what you believe. And I think Taan is really good at doing that we have these three meetings a year one, some North American ones, European one somewhere else in the world. And when we go, and we try and make sure it’s not just in a meeting room, and you get out and see things, and I encourage people to come early to meeting to stay later than meetings, just to embrace where they are. And it happens within the organization where you get our friends from Beirut, coming to a meeting, and you’re sitting down with them before the meeting starts and you know them. So you can start into a conversation and you could you could turn to Atlanta and say, Okay, so this explosion happens in Beirut. How do you handle that? Know how, in this world, what we’re trying just to survive, is a foreign subject for those of us who just are trying to make money and make our business better? No, I think it changes the way you think about who you are. And I do believe when you’re

John Corcoran 26:18

not exaggerating, that was one of your members that was the based in Beirut, then the massive explosion, they forget it was six months ago or something like that, now that they were on the other side of a building and the build the other side of the building, they’d been on the other side, all the windows are blown out and everything

Peter Gerritsen 26:36

crazy. Yep. And I think you know, with the other. The other one I think about often is our our member who was in Ukraine, and back in the Crimea, the invasion thing. And he’s in his office, he’s got a small agency in, in Kiev. And he’s looking out the window. He’s on the phone with me in St. Pete, there are tanks rolling down the street, how am I going to sell cars? You know, is like, I don’t know, I don’t know, how you

John Corcoran 27:10

were gonna be safe is when I’m first thinking of Jesus, you

Peter Gerritsen 27:14

know, and he’s, and he’s like, you know, I’m running an agency. And yeah, you know, I need to call home and make sure that the family spine, so how do I help market or sell stuff right now with people just trying to survive? And

John Corcoran 27:30

when? And how does that affect you? You know, having that experience? Has that you said you think about it a lot?

Peter Gerritsen 27:38

I do. I want to be a good human. And I think to be a good human, is to understand those who are not me. And the way I think, and sometimes it doesn’t work so well. You know, aside from the politics part, you know, which, you know, we get into, and yes, I rail against a lot of things that happen. But I think I can do better work at communicating things, but understanding things. Understanding the differences in the way people live, allows you to see what’s common to come up with a language of communicating something to them. No. It’s not all sales and price off. You know, it’s about how to make a connection to somebody in here. And something we used to say when back at our my agency days, and when we first started the agency, and we did a lot of b2b. And we always said, engineers are people too. We need to communicate to engineers, as people, not just speeds and feeds. And how do we do that the way that breaks through? I think that still holds true in everything we all do. You know, you sell legal services is connected with people to solve something and understand who that person is not just a legal books that you can offer. And to this, which is the same thing as digital. Those are tools to accomplish something. What are you trying to accomplish the thing we’re trying to figure out a new better job, and then just know the tools well enough to implement them in the most efficient and cost effective way.

John Corcoran 29:22

You mentioned politics, and, you know, you’re someone who, I guess, where’s your politics? A little bit on the sleeve? You might say, right, yeah, I’m from the kind of left side of the spectrum. And you’re not shy about sharing your political views. There are those though, who run communities who would worry about sharing their opinions, whether it’s about politics or something else, because they’re worried about alienating their members. How do you reconcile that?

Peter Gerritsen 29:51

Thought? Like everything I tell you, it’s a long answer. But, you know, I was born in New York City. I grew up in Philadelphia. My younger years I, my father was a Navy. So we did a lot of the East Coast living in a lot different places. And then the basically grew up foot off him. And then when we started the agency, I moved to Boston. And I was a bit of a fish out of water going to Boston. And but I’ve been I was there for 33 years until this past August. And I fully embraced the concept of the society can only improve by as low as common denominators being raised. And I do believe that. And I think, The New Yorker, Philadelphian I grew up in, you know, I didn’t grow up in Chicago, but all these places were tough places, you know, people who are willing to speak their mind out out loud. And I was not really good at that. Myself. You weren’t good at speaking your mind? No, I think I kept I think I kept a lot of it in. Why, um, I don’t think I was sure enough of myself. To be able to have to take that stand, I think I was still a bit of the playdough. of, you know, who am I going to be? You know, what’s

John Corcoran 31:18

quite a revolution evolution, then since now, you are someone who helps others by sharing those showing opinions, or making connections to help people to guide people.

Peter Gerritsen 31:28

And I don’t shut up that’s

John Corcoran 31:32

making up for lost time.

Peter Gerritsen 31:33

Yeah, I that’s I think there’s part of it. But I, you know, I think it was interesting for me, though, coming from being a founder of an advertising agency, which is about communicating and talking, and I don’t think I was really good at it, then I think I was good at helping the others around me be good at it. And I found, I found my voice when I joined Taan. And I think part of that really was all these other cultures and ideas coming together in one place. And the only way I can make them all see what their what what value they’ve got around them was open my mouth. And, you know, pull this person over here and say, here, here, you need to talk to this person here. And here’s why I can tell you the pieces you should just bring up. And those that’s, that’s where the innovation is going to happen. And yeah, we don’t the politics side, I don’t write, I don’t get on and blog about all those things. But you know, I surely have my strong beliefs I, what I don’t want to do is hurt 10 As an organization, because we do have a lot of voices coming from a lot of places.

John Corcoran 32:47

And has that ever happened? Is there ever been a member who’s been like, I can’t take this anymore? I’m out of here? Or just words, feathers? Maybe not quite the level of people quitting?

Peter Gerritsen 32:57

There’s been a little bit I’d say, it might, there’s been some more of the other way of some members saying, I’m not sure I, I can feel comfortable with someone so in the room, because of the way they behave,

John Corcoran 33:12

referring to you or someone else,

Peter Gerritsen 33:14

they’re referring to someone else, you know, and and me being the person to sort of how do I do I smooth this? How do I dress this? How do I do that? And I’ve had How do you navigate those issues? I do both? I mean, depending on what happens, but I think you’d have to sit down with certain people and explain that there is a difference. I mean, sometimes it was it was generational, some of us cultural. And I do think there are things that are right and wrong. But I think there is a fringe area where we may think of some things as wrong, but that’s they don’t see. If you explained something, they may see it. But it’s not inherent in our culture to know that that’s a that’s a wrong approach. I mean, I think I think the I think what helps is bringing people in that have a broader mind and ability to speak that really, one of the things I diversity issue is something that all organizations need to focus on more Taan has not done traditionally a good job at it as I want it to be. And that’s one of my bailiwick’s now. I mean, I we got to learn from those who we aren’t. And the more we have that exposure to other people, the more we’ll be willing to accept it. And it’s not critical race theory. You know, I, what it is, is cultural understanding. And that means gender, age, religion, all those things. It’s a It was funny. I know it’s funny or not. And so I’m in. I’ll give you a quick story of that. So I’m in Kuala Lumpur, that is beset like a blue or international guy, you know. So I’m in Kuala Lumpur, I’m with one of the 10 members at the time. And it’s my first trip there. And the two guys are are Muslim that I’m out with. And we go to a bar. And so I asked the question, it’s like, okay, so are you comfortable with this? Why has this stand with who you are as a person, they’re like,

Greg Irwin 35:43

he said, he,

Peter Gerritsen 35:46

he apologized to me and said, understand that I don’t I don’t drink. But I surely love being out with people and what they’re what they’re doing. And 80% of my cultural religious upbringing, is about embracing those who were not. It’s not reading the Quran, it’s not objecting to the Bible, it’s not any of those things. It’s who we are and who we are not. And let’s make sure we can we can get along. And Mike, this is actually a great conversation to have, because I if he destroyed, destroyed, not the right word, took down a lot of stereotypes I had in my head for many years, and he did it in an hour’s time. And, and, you know, and then we went off and had some crazy adventures and tunnels and things and he became a friend for a long time. And, and then. So that’s happened countless number times, that kind of conversation thing has happened to me over and over again. Breaking down the way I thought about something and seeing it from a different point of view.

John Corcoran 37:00

So if I’m reading this, right, the original question was about your political views, sharing your political views and concern about members, you know, things like that. But it seems like it’s authentic. Because on the one because because you’re part of your messages that we need to embrace different cultures and differences of opinions. And for you to not share your political beliefs would be in a sense in authentic I don’t know if you would express it that way. But it seems like it’s more authentic to the message, which is, we need to embrace diversity of opinions, diversity of thought, diversity of experiences, diversity of backgrounds.

Peter Gerritsen 37:35

Um, but I think I think there is a little difference between me as a person and me and my role. And what I have to do, I mean, I do think I have to hold back on certain things. And you know, I don’t not rail against somebody without really understanding who they are. But I will rail against those who I disagree with?

John Corcoran 37:59

As is your right, right, as is.

Peter Gerritsen 38:00

Yeah. But I but I do think I have to understand No, as President of Taan Worldwide, there are opinions and places of political perspectives, that are embraced outside of what I believe is right, within our organization, and around the world, that I need to live with them, and share with them and grow with them. And frankly, embrace them for being friends that I don’t agree with, in all in all forms. I do think, within 10 As an organization, just like there’s a certain character and caliber of person who, who was right for this organization, that holds true in the way they believe in all this, we’re talking about two. There. I’d say, as an organization over the years, only about one in six or seven agencies that I talked to, is right, and or will join Taan is right for this organization. When in six or seven, yeah. Most most people call me and they’re saying how much business am I going to get to join this network? And it’s like, none, you’re gonna get none. Let me just put it that way. You’re gonna get no business from during tan. Unless you open up trust, share, give, collaborate, and see people’s appear, then it might happen. But all that stuff has to happen first. Then they trust you and say, you know, I think they could that I think you can help me solve this problem. And I’ll help we’ll share the revenue from that and get there that so guys like, so the politics question is, I don’t want to embarrass the members by me going off on a tangent in the wrong venue or not. Although, you know, like, I told you the story right? You know, my one political story I’ll tell you what, you know of already. The so the day that the last the 2016 election happened. I was in Buenos Aires speaking, scheduled to speak the day after the US election to an international group of marketers about the truth in advertising. That was my topic, I was talking about the importance of telling the truth in communications. And here is Trump’s speech Trump winning this election, I stay up all night panicked for multiple reasons PAC because I am a liberal and illiberal and social thing. And I’m like, What is going on here? How did this happen? And then like, okay, To what do I tell these people? I’ve got hundreds of people going to be in this ballroom tomorrow morning, what are they gonna do? And I decided to keep my most of my presentation, as as it was. And I just decided, I started off with a big picture of Trump on the screen and said, you know, before I talk about the topic, you knew brought me in for I need to address this, you know, played the picture of him. And I said, you know, I apologize on behalf of the US citizens for the evil that will be brought wrought on the all of us around the world, for what just happened yesterday. And I hope that we all can find truth in what the world should be moving forward. Then I clicked to my next slide, which said, you know, to communicate the truth, the importance of communications and truth and communications, and everybody just started laughing. You know, it’s like, okay, this, there’s common ground here. And that was, that was the extent of the political conversation, the rest of it had nothing to do with politics, and I didn’t address it anymore. But I, I went straight for the monkey in the room. Got to it. And moved on. still pissed about what happened. But that’s, you know, where we’re at was, right. So yeah, okay. So I, I promised myself, I wasn’t doing a political and you’re in this podcast with you. And they’re like,

John Corcoran 42:20

I have the way of extracting that other people from time to time. So what can I say? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it is consistent, you know, with the message. So I think that’s great. You know, we’re running a little shorter. Now. We’re actually over on time, right? Yeah. So sorry about that. But I do want to ask you a couple final questions. First of all, I did the math. And I think you’re about 1515 years away from the centennial of Taan Worldwide.

Peter Gerritsen 42:50

What do you

John Corcoran 42:52

as you look towards that centennial, no doubt planning has begun in earnest. And you’ve been planning for a couple years now? I’m sure. Right, exactly. No, I mean, as you take an organization into its second century, that was founded in 1936. And all this digital transformation that’s happening right now, that’s been accelerated by COVID. What’s top of mind? What do you what do you think needs to be done? What’s how? What is the role of face to face in this digital world that we’re moving into where obviously, we’re all going to be in the metaverse any day now? Right? So I’m throwing a lot at you there. But you take what you pick. What you like,

Peter Gerritsen 43:30

I would hope is this x over years before the centennial that AI really is, is robust enough that there’ll be one for the front end,

John Corcoran 43:39

so they can plan it. Right. The AI can, they could do it, or they could do all that work. Um, yeah.

Peter Gerritsen 43:43

I think secondarily, I think it’s a crapshoot if I make it to that point. So we’ll see, you know, I’m not even just a member, will I be here on on this earth at that point? I don’t know. And I’m okay with that. I think, move on to those around. I think it’s going to be different. And I can’t see where it’s going to be. I think for me, the big thing is, not to say no. Is but to say yes. And let’s figure out where what’s coming up over the horizon, and be excited about it, and embrace it. And, you know, as what’s the old adage of, in war pint, all pining goes to ship when’s the first book? What’s the first bomb drops? I think all the playing in the world can’t plan for what’s going to happen 15 years from now. All we can do is have this creative mindset that we want to make it better. Whatever it is, and we can evaluate things and and write things and build things with that in mind. It’ll be okay. That’s a that’s a great

John Corcoran 45:05

point to end on. But I do have one final question before I do that. First, a quick shout out. I didn’t mention at the beginning, but David C. Baker, one of my past guests, who first told me you got to reach out to Peter, he’d be a great person to talk to. So thank you, David. And wrapping things up a big fan of gratitude, you know, and you’re such a well connected guy across, you know, the globe really, if you look around at your peers and your contemporaries, others in your industry, however you want to define that. Could you respect who you admire this doing good work these days?

Peter Gerritsen 45:35

I, I think, you know, when one of the I’ll give you a couple smaller examples, and one bigger one. I mean, I’ll start with the oldest Mike and think of their who’s no longer with us as a man named Jerry Givens. He’s a he was an advertising classic. You know, he was the two Martini lunch kind of classic advertising guy, built his career out of San Francisco built a couple agencies, became one of the leaders of the forays, which is the International was a US version of the Commerce Department. He took me by the shoulders, and showed me what’s good and what’s bad about this business. And he died a few years ago. Having grown up on a ranch and been a farmer and ended up being in this business. And as he kind of told me is, don’t take any of it seriously. Don’t take yourself seriously mostly, and be and embrace the fact that you don’t know what the hell is going on from day to day. That’s okay. So I think Tim, there’s a woman, Megan Kennedy at of Atlanta, and she, she runs a small agency called Art sparkle ball. She’s a member of tan. But when I first met her, I can’t remember how I met her. We got connected somehow. And I forgive that, forgive me to wherever what made that connection happen. But my first phone call with her was supposed to been 20 minutes ended up being almost two and a half hours of just the things that came out of her mouth, which was coming out of her head about innovation and moving and thinking, and how you have to be different and sharing all those things. And here’s a woman who really lives what she says, you know, she was originally a CDC researcher on HIV drops that goes back to school for engineering at Georgia Tech, and then builds an agency that’s about helping businesses figure out how to be innovative. It’s she’s just and then spends her nights railing against the political systems. And then she’s just out that she just, I’m amazed, by the way, she’s next. And then I think there’s smaller people out there. There’s a guy I know, that was in this business. And his name I don’t want to mention because I you know, I think he’s one for definitely I want the fame out there. But he’s a painter. He’s an artist. He’s a sculptor. And he was a professor of mine when I was in art school. That you know, yeah, I went to art school. Well, thanks. I don’t have that I I started off in pre med till I as I put it, it was too hard. And I went to art school then. And he showed me how to think critically about the work you do. And Judge it always for never being good enough. But satisfied enough to pass to say it’s done. You know, it’s like, okay, you know, the masters always say I, this this work is never finished, or those who just bang things out and you know, seldom and he was always like, there’s a balance in here. And I’ll say his name Steve. Steve tear Intel was and his daughter is a news anchor in Boston now. But he just changed me in art school. That’s right. That’s right. So does everybody wants Okay, so I’ve now I reeled up your time,

John Corcoran 49:39

well done. No, it was great. The the orchestra did not run you off. So this is a great Peter, where can people go learn more about you connect with you and learn more about

Peter Gerritsen 49:47

that? You’ll find us there. On a put now need needs to be it’s an out Data website needs to be done. But I’ll be doing that in the next

John Corcoran 50:02

color shoes. always the case. All right. Yeah. Thank you so much,

Peter Gerritsen 50:07

John, it was great to meet you and spend this time. I had a great time. In our previous conversations. This is great. Excellent. Good luck. Rise25. Keep it up.

John Corcoran 50:17

Excellent. Thank you, sir.

Outro 50:19

Thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast with John Corcoran. Find out more at And while you’re there, sign up for our email list and join the revolution. And be listening for the next episode of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast.