Nancy Lyons | [Top Agency Series] Build a Great Culture in Times of Pandemics and Social Justice Revolutions

Nancy Lyons 10:00

Well, you know, I think first of all, after Philando, Castile, after Jamar Clark, after so many other names, it was not something that was unexpected. And that’s the real tragedy of the conversation around George Floyd, another man had to lose his life, at the hands of those folks who are supposed to be protecting and serving. And my staff really took the murder of George Floyd, very hard, and the destruction of our city as a result, you know, just followed that with great sort of emotion. And so we were essentially closed for a period of time, while our people showed up in the streets, in the neighborhoods where they lived, to help rebuild and clean up and traffic supplies and be available and provide protection and solidarity. And, and so it was really, you know, we were in the middle of a pandemic. And on top of that, this particular city was in the middle of a deeply painful and traumatic event. And so this last year, the last 18 months has been, you know, one of the hardest, lengthy experiences of our lives, if you’re at all connected or aware, and it’s not over, I think it’s easy for the rest of the world to kind of move on. But it’s not in Minnesota. And I think it’s not, you know, in particular in the Twin Cities, because not a lot of change has happened. So it’s become, you know, almost dramatically apparent that we can’t count on our leadership to make the change that’s necessary. And it’s interesting to me, because the parallel that I draw with the technology space is that our entire existence is about experimenting. It’s about trying new things, and adapting to new technologies, and being curious enough to want to teach ourselves and trying and trying again, and failing, and learning how to fail well. And what I recognize about how state and local governments and beyond operate is they aren’t familiar with the concept of failure or the concept of experimentation. So instead of doing anything, we’re doing nothing. And I think that’s really sad, because as I said to you before, after Jamar, Clark after Philando, Castile, now after George Floyd, I expect that if we don’t do something, it will happen again. And to me, that’s the I mean, the loss of those men is the greatest crime, but the crime that sort of comes up the rear of all of this is the fact that we aren’t changing, nothing has changed nothing. You know, I think individuals are having personal, you know, moments of realization and self awareness and recognizing how they contribute to systems that were made entirely for them. But I don’t know that the bigger the larger systems of government and leadership and policing have had those come to Jesus moments that are necessary to make real change. And it’s hard to witness when you’re in a space, you know, when we are in a space that is nothing but change. I mean, I think the fact that we’ve been around for 20 years and had a technology company before speaks to our ability to change. And so I sort of made it my life’s mission to stand on the back of my little successful company, and say out loud, that nothing. Nothing should get in the way of our desire to demand change, and to push forward and to speak out and to speak truth to power and, and to influence the fact that something needs to happen.

John Corcoran 14:20

What were those conversations like in the immediate aftermath, aftermath within your company, when people started to come back together? What did that conversation mean? What was that conversation like, internally?

Nancy Lyons 14:35

Well, I think it was profound sadness and exhaustion. I am still dealing with the aftermath of all of it, not just the pandemic. And I was saying to somebody last night that I think the next great crisis we’re going to deal with as a nation is a mental health crisis. And I believe that because I think we don’t know how to talk about things or address things or make change or make space for mental health. And I believe that, you know, I witnessed my staff go through a significant mental health crisis, and it was the pandemic, but on top of that, and on top of the isolation and on top of the uncertainty, and what was the word we heard over and over the unprecedented nature of, you know, the impact on business, there was also this big moral question mark about whether or not we would come out the other side of this enormous tragedy, better if we would use it to really look at ourselves and determine what needs to change in the state. But beyond I mean, we’re just a microcosm, a sample of the truth of what’s, you know, reality across the country. And that is that, you know, we are a nation made for white people. And that’s just the truth. And I get that, that makes people uncomfortable, I get that people don’t want to be racist, I get all of those things, and we don’t have a language to address it. And we don’t know, you know, and white guilt is really problematic in the context of all of that, but it’s, it’s true. And as long as we keep running from it, we’re not going to fix it, and we need to fix it. Because, you know, the other day I was talking to somebody, and they were talking about how black and brown people have been deprived of certain aspects of our culture. And I and I said, I think you have to really be deliberate in how you articulate that. It’s not that they’ve been deprived. It’s not that they couldn’t get it, it’s that they were excluded. These things were not made for them. And we continue to operate in that reality without acknowledging that it’s true. And that’s the you know, it’s the first step to admitting we have an issue is just saying out loud and getting past our discomfort. It’s unfortunate that people are just uncomfortable.

John Corcoran 17:07

But I want to ask you about what you did as a company? Are there any decisions or actions or changes that came out of those discussions, then that happened in the aftermath of what happened to George Floyd?

Nancy Lyons 17:21

Sure. I mean, one thing that happened immediately after is we just made space for people to do what they needed to do, whether that was show up in the streets, volunteer, clean up their particular neighborhood, stay home and sleep. You know, everybody reacted in different ways. And we really tried to honor those differences, and make space for all of them. I think, right now we’re dealing with the continued exhaustion, that nobody seems to want to talk about as we talk about snapping back to what we should be doing in the workplace. So right now, we are actually experimenting with four day work weeks, and really trying to schedule around Fridays, not you know, making it a throwaway day just scheduling around it and giving people the ability to rest more, we are encouraging rest, even in how we’ve how we built our budget, quite frankly, you know, we budgeted with a target number of billable hours. That was , I won’t say significantly. But but but but lower than what they were used to. Because in our experience, you know, if we don’t make space for these people to rest, and to, you know, take care of their emotional bodies, we are going to be part of this great resignation that is on the horizon that people are already starting to experience. And that’s something I’m interested in.

John Corcoran 18:50

I mean, right now, there’s a lot of people changing jobs. Do you think that’s part of it?

Nancy Lyons 18:54

Absolutely. I think people everywhere are reprioritizing because our entire existence was staring us in the face last year, and we retired and we weren’t running around doing anything. So suddenly, we really had to ask ourselves, how are we investing our time? And what of it actually matters, and I know that I’m doing it. I’m trying to reprioritize my entire life, so that I only do things that matter to me, to my family and to my community. And I really need to practice the word no. And, you know, every day, I think people experience regret in their work lives. And we’re trying to avoid as much of that as possible and give people the freedom to rest.

John Corcoran 19:37

It sounds like in those discussions and the decisions that were made in the aftermath that you and your company see eye to eye from the way you’re describing it, in terms of how to respond and what decisions were made. But I want to ask as a leader of your company. Was there any tension for you In terms of how you manage the company going forward, and were there any, you know, challenges where, you know, maybe like, you know, the rank and file in your company said, Okay, well, we should all take the whole month off. And then you as business owners, you know, there’s the tension of well, we got to keep the lights on guys, you know, I’d love to do that. So was any of those sorts of tensions that happened for you?

Nancy Lyons 20:24

Sure. I mean, listen, Nobody, Nobody wears the stress, like ownership, right. And nobody experiences the realities of the business like ownership. So I do think that that tension has always been there, and probably will always be there. I think people, you know, they’re not, they’re not thinking about it in the same way as I do. And they’re not supposed to. But I do think that what we really shoot for is a good amount of transparency, and a lot of very active conversation about the realities of the business so that we’re all sharing the important information that we have to. So yeah, that tension exists. Absolutely. Sometimes. I mean, as a, as a business owner. And actually, I know, we’re going to talk about my book, but it makes a lot of sense. Why I wrote the book makes a lot of sense, when we start to think about this, and that is, everybody is accountable for the health and success of a business, it can’t just be ownership, because that imbalance is it’s not it’s not healthy for anybody. Now, I’m not saying that the, the, you know, the, the most minute details are the most, you know, all of the stress that I manage, I should share with my colleagues, that’s not productive. But I do think transparency,

John Corcoran 21:49

a lot of people out exactly, exactly, because you don’t know how many things I’m stressed out by, it’s totally true.

Nancy Lyons 21:55

And my interest is not to freak them out. But give them a sense of how important their accountability is, in terms of keeping their promises. So, you know, this summer, we’re recognizing that, you know, really simple metrics for targets for each individual to shoot for are the easiest ways to stay on the same page relative to what success looks like. Like if they know, you know, the margins have to look like this for us to be healthy. And your target number, in terms of billable hours is this if they know that those are the two things that they can keep sort of front and center as they work through the summer, and they can manage their schedules and their need for respite around that. And I think that’s really critical. And I think their desire to be accountable is also critical, which is why I wrote the book about personal accountability for how to show up and contribute to the health of the organization and the culture.

John Corcoran 22:55

So I want to dive into the book. But before we do that one last question on this line that we’ve been talking about, but, you know, what has the response been from your clients in the aftermath of the George Floyd killing? And, you know, with you making decisions about how you’re going to run your business? did? Did you get any kind of you no feedback from them? What was that? What was that conversation? Like? Did you have to say, Okay, our team’s not going to be available on Fridays, for example, because we decided, you know, for our own mental health, we’re gonna have to take Fridays off.

Nancy Lyons 23:30

Mm hmm. You know, remarkably, most of our clients have been really positive about the shifts that we’re making. And it’s not terribly evident, it doesn’t really impact them that much, because those target numbers remain. So you know, it’s not like they’re getting charged for a day where we’re not working, they get charged for the time that we work. And we collaborate with our clients on Sprint’s and milestones, and so they understand what to expect, and we deliver on those promises. And really, that’s about our values. And we actually determine client fit based on those values. So when you know that somebody sort of shares that value set, and they’re similar to you and how they eat, not necessarily how they view the world, but how they value partnership and humans, when you’re certain of that it’s easy to deliver those kinds of messages. And you can almost expect what the response will be and the response from our clients pretty much across the board has been relatively positive. So that’s the good news. They’ve all been, you know, and immediately after people were like, Absolutely, and you know, I think you responded in the same way that most people across the country do, which is Oh, you’re in Minneapolis. You know, I think that takes on like we used to be known for how cold it is here. And now we’re just known for being racist which is tragic to me. And I think the eyes of the world are on you know, this literal Big City. And it’s why I feel so strongly about us making some changes and really working hard to lead the conversation versus continuing to just react to it. And so I think there’s an opportunity for businesses in this community for leadership here, you know, to really make an impact. And if the government, you know, if the leadership of the city isn’t going to do it, then businesses can. And I think a lot of businesses have shown up in ways that I really admire to make some amount of difference when we feel wildly helpless.

John Corcoran 25:38

Yeah. You mentioned making sure that your clients are a fit in terms of your values, talk a little bit more about that. You know, how do you screen clients to make sure that they’re a fit for your values, your company values? And also, you know, are there any stories that you can share where a client came in who you determined wasn’t a good fit for your values? And how did you make that determination?

Nancy Lyons 26:05

Well, I can, there’s some really easy ones to share with you anecdotally, we have had, we have said no to a large gun manufacturer who wanted to sell guns online. And you know, whether you see this as a political issue or not, you know, my parents, proud gun owners. My father is a former police officer. And I think that we need to get a handle on how we manage guns in this country, not take them away, just get a handle on it. And so that was just a place where we decided not to go. We’ve also had a company that had a store that sold I would say, you know, jokey sort of paraphernalia, I don’t know how to describe it. But among the products that they sold, where was Nazi paraphernalia? That was a really easy no for us. You know, I’ve been approached about building porn or soft porn sites, that was a really easy no for us. So those are easy ones, the gun, one in particular, could have amounted to a really significant amount of revenue. And we opted against it. So I think there are some glaringly obvious, you know, folks that have approached us, and they’ve been really easy to just sort of decline. I think that the value piece really comes down to communication, you know, it used to be that the web, and digital was sort of an afterthought. And we waited until we spent all of our money on commercials or ad buys or whatever. And then we relegated, you know, a portion of our budget to that digital component. And now I think, you know, digital is your front door, and quite frankly, a good portion of your business. And, and so, for us, it’s really about being able to have honest, transparent, mutually respectful conversations with clients, because technology brings with it a whole kind of whole, a whole lot of tension. And, you know, I often joke and say, sometimes I feel like my job is to crush people’s dreams, because they think anything can happen with technology, and certainly it can. But you have to have the budget to pay for that. And you have to have the team to support it. And the other, you know, the other things that we see inside of companies is when people look at their digital spend as an expense versus an investment, we probably have a ways to go before we know that we’re going to work well together. Because, you know, we’re building especially now after the pandemic, you know, we talked a lot about pivoting. But what we haven’t talked about is the sustained realities of those pivots. And how people are rebuilding businesses, metaphorically, from the ground up in digital spaces, and sort of redefining processes and rebuilding teams and recognizing what customer experience really is. And we need clients who can handle the good and the bad of those discussions and who can collaborate with us to solutions that are pragmatic for their businesses at the moment, but also forward thinking enough to recognize that evolution is coming. And we’re all moving, you know, toward an increasingly digital world. And so, I think our values are about how we communicate how transparent we are, you know, one of our values is we’re fueled by challenges like this stuff is hard. And we need our clients to be up for the hard stuff too. They cannot expect us to tell them only what they want to hear. That’s not to say we don’t want them to be happy. We want our clients to love working with us. But in the same way that you know, the best relationships thrive on honesty and shared energy and mutual interest and respect. Our best client relationships are really fostered from those same things as well. 

John Corcoran 30:21

I think it’s fascinating, all the different industries that are evolving and changing and, you know, disruptions, a cliched term these days, but they’re really massively having to rethink the way that they do things. Do you have any, you have to give examples of names of companies, but examples of, you know, types of companies that you’ve been helping to pivot during this past year, this pandemic, you know, during the pandemic, and really reinvent the way that they work or the way that they engage with clients?

Nancy Lyons 30:52

Yeah, absolutely. I think that we spend a ton of our time working in regulated industries. So very specifically healthcare and financial services. And some of them are older. I don’t want to say stodgy. But I, because the people we work with are remarkable. I’m so grateful for the clients that we get to work with. But I do think, yeah, I do think they’re sort of meshed or immersed in these old ways of being and doing and it’s much harder to, you know, be innovative. And what we’re really trying to do is help our clients do exactly that to innovate and think differently. And we also, you know, we don’t just deploy digital solutions, we also do strategic consulting, and part of that, oftentimes is change enablement, or product adoption. Because our clients often think that if they spend the money on the technology, that alone will solve their problems. But it doesn’t always work that way. And so we have to think differently about how we form teams, about how those teams function, about governance and workflow, and how we streamline those processes. Because bureaucracy for bureaucracy’s sake, has gotten in the way of really good work and a lot of organizations. So we really come in, trying to be solution focused in a holistic way, and address some of those issues to build efficiencies for our clients so that the technology will succeed and their investment will pay off.

John Corcoran 32:19

Hmm, interesting. So Work Like a Boss: A Kick-in-the-Pants Guide to Finding (and Using) Your Power at Work. I love the title, by the way. So great title, for a book that you decided, you were going to write about culture, it’s such an interesting time for you to be writing it giving everything that happened in the last year, you know, many people say, you know, the last year accelerated the movement towards digital digitization, and remote work, you know, five years, 10 years, whatever amount. So talk a little bit about first, what inspired you to write the book, which you decided to write even before the pandemic started?

Nancy Lyons 32:58

Yeah, I was writing it the year before the pandemic. And it was released about eight months into the pandemic, which was a real good time. But, you know, it was interesting to me, and I’ll just share this little story and it’ll make sense in a second. When I first started doing press for the book, I asked a local paper, one of the big two, one of the big two to look at the book and maybe do a review. And we got a rejection letter because that person

said, you know, what, how does this book make any sense now that the pandemic has forced us all to go home, none of this actually matters, which I felt like made my point. Because this was a person who believed that culture can only happen in a place, and that people were changing now, and didn’t understand the sense of place like you and I have right now, you know, we’re on a zoom call, we can see each other, we are in a place, we are exchanging energy right now. And I’m participating in this moment, and my participation is my responsibility. And I think that’s true for how work works. And I think that, you know, just like we were talking about these, you know, these old ways of working and thinking that impede progress inside of many industries or organizations, I think it’s true. Basically all workplaces, the thing that ruins work is not whether or not we have technology, to call in for a meeting or zoom into a meeting. It’s how people show up the energy they bring the interest they have in each other in, you know, the end product. And I think that oftentimes, and I say this a lot people abdicate responsibility for those things to leadership, but truly, each individual plays a role in how successful organizations their services and their products actually are and if they don’t believe that and you use that power for good. They’re actually, they’re actually part of the problem. And, you know, to the point that you made about how, you know, all these businesses have pivoted. True. And I just got done telling you, I’ve been in the internet business for 25 years. And in that time, since the beginning of that time, I’ve been working at home, and flexible schedules, job sharing, and trust have all been critical components of my business. But what I recognize and what I’ve said to people, as I’ve talked about this book, in various instances, is, you know, people would say to me, Well, how do you get to make these statements, you don’t work for a big company? No, I do not. I refer to a small company. But we work with big companies. And honest to God, I don’t know how the majority of them function. I don’t know how they get stuff done. I don’t, because wherever there are people, there are issues. And organizations don’t know how to handle people’s issues. And we started trying with HR, but HR is really about the company, avoiding litigation. And nobody is teaching the people how to be more human with each other, and make space, you know, right now, dei, as a result of the racial reckoning in this country’s big conversation at work. Well, frankly, diversity isn’t just about race, race, or ethnicity, its diversity of thought and ability. And, I think making space for all of it is essential. And so I wrote the book. And I called it a kick in the pants guide, because I wanted individuals to pick it up and recognize themselves in parts of it, and abandon those behaviors that aren’t productive, and don’t contribute to the success of themselves and the organization. And some of those behaviors are judging each other. You know, we’ve always had, my company has had, you know, working remotely working from home flexible schedule since forever. And I always just tell people, you can have those policies on the books. But if you make it difficult for other people to take advantage of them, then they’re not true. And I would go inside of companies all the time as a consultant and recognize that, while some of these bigger companies were really trying to embrace new ways of working, the reality was, you know, Bob could have negotiated Friday’s off and worked his 40 hours in the first four days. But if everybody else on Bob’s team has demonized Bob for taking advantage of this opportunity, then Bob, you know, then that policy isn’t true. And Bob’s not gonna have a good time actually, using this privilege that he’s negotiated. And I think people ruin, you know, good ways of being and thinking, because we judge each other, we make it difficult for each other, we can handle change, I think change is a big, you know, hardship for a lot of people, they struggle with it. They like things the way they’ve always been. It’s not just toddlers that like routine, it’s humans, we’d like things predictable, I like to drive to work, when I like to drive to work, I like to be in my desk and eat my lunch at the time, I’d like to eat it, I want you to sit there and I want to know what you’re doing. And I want to, I want to, you know, I want to be able to see it, because your button, that seat is what matters most to me, not the results of your energy. And so I really wanted to write a book that sort of pushes for that kind of healthy self awareness, that changes how people think and helps them to recognize their, you know, their passive aggression at work and other ways of behaving that just aren’t productive. Hmm.

John Corcoran 38:39

You know, I’m interested in knowing, you know, and maybe this is a hard question for you to answer. But, you know, as the owner of your company, you know, it’s one thing to say to your employees, you know, okay, you need to act like a boss, you need to make decisions, like you’re a boss, but where does the rubber meet the road? Like, in other words, like, how does it play out? Are there examples of decisions where another company, like the owner, would make that decision, but in your company, you know, you decide that the collective mass of people need to make that decision? Does that make any sense?

Nancy Lyons 39:16

Yeah, sure. I think, you know, at the end of the day, it’s not a democracy. It’s a you know, I joke and say, it’s a benevolent dictatorship. But, um, I think that what I want for this company is for people to know that their voices have power and that they are seen and heard, and that they influence my job. And I always tell them, This is to protect the mothership. I have to make decisions in favor of the mothership. So it can’t it can’t be about making everybody happy, because that’s not sustainable. But I am looking to create as in my work, I’m looking to create an optimal experience for everybody. So it’s important for me to understand people’s perceptions and behavior. There’s an expectation that I can waive those. And my leadership team can weigh those when we’re making decisions that are optimal, that we hope are optimal. And I think it’s important for us to understand people’s perceptions of needs and wants and limitations, when we are experimenting with trying new things. So I think that the way it manifests in my company is people know, they can talk about what they want, or what they need, and people know, they can try things. And they won’t be, you know, penalized. You know, we’re not a punitive organization, we’re not going to make people pay for mistakes. We’re open to failure, as long as we learn from it, and the next iteration, which is how we work, right? Like, if we’re working in an agile way, we are iterating to a better product, I feel that way about the company.

John Corcoran 40:49

Hmm. Do you find with the type of business that you have, where you’re your client focus, you’re helping clients to, you know, embrace digital, that it is hard to find something that you can rally the team around. So you know, I’ll give you an example. So within our company, you know, it helped for us when we got clear on what our mission was, you know, and said that our mission was to help other companies to build great relationships through podcasts and content marketing. And we found that that helped with the team with culture with hiring that sort of thing. You know, have you found that that is? I guess I’m struggling to come up with a question around this. But is that something that you were able to rally everyone around a particular mission? Or is it a lot of different things at once?

Nancy Lyons 41:38

Well, I think the mission is nuanced, right? When we start, we have the same mission, as we did when we started. We wrote on a cocktail napkin, and we talked about who we wanted to be. And this was 20 years ago, and the mission was and is to do great work and have great lives. And we wanted there to be a balance at the time, I think agencies were notorious for chewing people up and spitting them out. I think they were notorious for, you know, being a little precious and having, you know, it’s the creative directors, or the people at the top of the food chain, who make all of the big decisions and get all of the glory. And we really wanted more balance, we wanted to create more opportunity for people, we wanted to allow people to have voices and be able to express their ideas at every level of the organization. So doing great work that we could be proud of made great sense. But since but also have great lives, like we’d worked in places that honestly didn’t care much about us. And we wanted people to feel like no matter what we always care about them. And I think that over time, you know, I think pretty immediately, but over time, we’ve achieved that. And I think people know that to be true. That being said, I can’t make work not suck sometimes, right? And that’s a point that I make in the book like nobody else. I think we have this tendency to believe that other jobs will not be like this or that the next opportunity will be better. Or if I have this title, or if I’m making this much money. And the truth is any of us who have been around for a while. And I’ve already admitted that I’m old and have been around for too long. You know, any of us who have been around for a while know that the grass isn’t greener, it’s still just grass. And so what are you going to do? Like it’s not somebody else’s problem. If you’re not finding fulfillment or enjoyment, what are you going to do, maybe it is another job. But maybe an attitude shift or a shift in mindset where you are, will actually be helpful in allowing you to find some amount of fulfillment in the work that you’re doing.

John Corcoran 43:39

But Nancy, this has all been really interesting. We’re running short of time. So I want to ask one final question, which is, I’m a big fan of gratitude. So if you look around at your peers and contemporaries, however you want to define that. Who do you respect? Who do you admire that’s doing good, interesting work that you really respect or admire?

Nancy Lyons 43:59

Yeah. It’s hard to think about just one person, but I’m going to share actually, if you don’t mind, I’m going to share a couple of names with you . Yeah, that’s great. One is my colleague, Jenny Holman, who’s been with our company for gosh, 13 years, maybe 14 years. She’s a senior vice president, and she is the person who leads client success and really influences delivery. But what I will say is, you know, in a in a time where people leave organizations and jumped ship for titles and pay and status, loyalty is something that I don’t know that we value in the ways that we should, and I have some wildly loyal but really smart, competent, capable, capable human beings on my staff. And Jenny just comes to mind as one of the strongest people that I’m most grateful for, and she is so focused on making Clockwork a better place all the time. and doing exactly what her job requires of her, which is, you know, to steer us toward successful client relationships and work products. So I’m super grateful for Jenny. I learned from her every day and she seems unflappable, which I am not. And then another person that I really admire out in the world. Well, there, there’s, there’s just so many we have a client, Melanie Shirley, who, before, the place where she’s at right now she was at a company called learners edge. She has followed us, you know, in all the iterations of her career, as she’s advanced in her career and taken on more challenging leadership positions. She’s been wonderful to us, and picks us every time I have another client who does the same thing. You know, and I’m thinking of those clients in particular right now. Because loyalty in a time of uncertainty cannot be undervalued. It is such a tremendous gift to have staff that are loyal and really, truly interested in the health and well being of the organization, and clients who really valued the relationship enough to continue to work with us in all of their iterations.

John Corcoran 46:18

That’s great. Nancy, thank you. Work Like a Boss: A Kick-in-the-Pants Guide to Finding (and Using) Your Power at Work is the name of the book. Clockwork Interactive is the name of the agency. Where can people go to learn more about you?

Nancy Lyons 46:29

Well, they can go to First and foremost, you can find out about the book at And you can find out about me and the speaking that I do and the writing that I do at And thank you, John, for including me in this crazy list of guests that you have such important interesting people that you interview and I’m honored to be on the list.

John Corcoran 46:51

Oh, it was a pleasure. And it was a fascinating discussion. So thank you so much.

Nancy Lyons 46:55

Thank you.

Outro 46:56

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