John Corcoran 11:03
And so originally, that, as I understand it, was not necessarily a critical component of being a part of EO and you were involved in actually helping to roll it out. So talk to me a little bit about that.
Mo Fathelbab 11:18
That is yeah, yeah. So we, when I started working at EO, we had been working on an alliance with YPO (Young Presidents Organization). And as we started to formulate that alliance, we learned that they had, you know, 10,000 members, I think, or maybe 7000 members at the time.
John Corcoran 11:38
Yeah, around order organization, I believe that started in the 50s, late 50s.
Mo Fathelbab 11:42
Yeah, it started in the 50s. And they had this thing called Forum, which they said was their number one member benefit. So here’s this group of CEOs whose average business is $40 million, who at the time had seven 8000 members around the world. And their number one member benefit is this thing they called for them. And so we’re like, what is that we want some of that magic. So finally, in June of 91, they said, Okay, we are going to allow a group of 20 of you to attend one of our moderator training sessions. And so a bunch of us went up to this training and Toronto, from Mexico, US, Canada, we have 20 people who are really empowered with going to this two day training, learning this program.
And going back to their chapters and starting peer groups or forums, in their chapters. I fell in love with it, which I’ll talk about in a second. But I saw quickly that it was a high expectation to expect these people based on two days of training, to go back and effectively launch groups doing this the right way, because it was a bit complicated. So I went to the board, and I said, Look, if we really want to get this on the map, I think we need to have somebody who’s really well trained, who understands it very well. And who is going to start to form groups together, so that they can have this deep bonding experience with the people they’re actually going to be in a forum with. And so they’re following the right format, we want to make sure that, you know, they’re not losing sight of the process, which is so important for enabling this meaningful dialogue.
So the board said, Yes. And I went on and started traveling the world, I probably did this in 30 countries. I mean, I’ve done this kind of work and way over 30 countries at this point, but by then, I probably did it in 30 countries just to get these programs going for EO around the world. And then of course, I couldn’t do all the training at some point. And so we created a trainer program. And, you know, the rest is history, as they say.
John Corcoran 13:54
Yeah, and briefly, maybe we can talk about some of the best practices that you’ve seen across, you know, different forums. You mentioned that you said, You’ve been in the same one since 1991. What are some of those critical ingredients that you see that leads forums to be successful? And the flip side of that coin? What will torpedo a forum?
Mo Fathelbab 14:17
You know, other than the ones I’ve already discussed, commitment is absolutely essential. So you could imagine a group of entrepreneurs, everybody’s busy, especially in this day and age, we have a million things, tugging at our calendar. And without commitment, it doesn’t work. So in fact, what we do in my group is we schedule months in advance, we schedule six to 12 months in advance with the idea that we’re going to plan our lives around our forum meetings, and not vice versa, because otherwise, we have a million reasons not to make it. Sure. You can’t be late. If you’re late. You buy dinner, sometimes that’s our policy. Every group is different. And that dinner could be 1000 bucks. It’s So, you know, for some people, that’s a big deal.
John Corcoran 15:03
Yeah. Yeah, It’s funny because, you know, I’ve seen people that run $50 million businesses, and they’ll run across the parking lot to make sure they’re not late. So they don’t have to buy the $1,000 dinner, maybe there’s a little bit of pride involved in it as well.
Mo Fathelbab 15:15
Yeah, maybe they just don’t want to be late. So they can, you know, not let their peers down. But listen, I know groups that say you have to do a push up for every minute, because that’s more equal than money or, or do a half day in the soup kitchen if you’re late. But listen, it’s not about being punitive. Right? It’s just about Are we committed? And do we show commitment to one another? And are we present for one another? Right? Because you’re not there to learn from a speaker, you’re there to help your fellow forum members. Right?
John Corcoran 15:48
Right and did you find that you said you went to 30 different countries? Did you find that this was something that transcended cultures and transcended local geographies? And it’s amazing to me that you have this format, that it can work in so many different places in so many different backgrounds, so many different countries.
Mo Fathelbab 16:08
You know, we’re all human beings. And what that means is we have emotions, whether we’re willing to own them or not, whether we’re willing to share them or not. We all have emotions. So in that regard, yes, I do find it’s worked in, you know, 95% of the places that I’ve been, there are some places where it works. But for me, it just feels like it’s not as meaningful and not as satisfying. But maybe I just have higher expectations. But it does work. It certainly works.
John Corcoran 16:45
And in every culture, you know, so EO is now I don’t know, 33 years old, or something like that. It’s got, I believe, at last count about 18,000. Members, you were there when it had 100. As we said, I got it to a couple of 1000. Other than forums, there’s obviously a lot of different elements to the organization. But what else do you think was the reason that it had it sustains that it continues to grow? You know, this 33 years later, you know, looking back at that time that you were there? Is there something that you can point to that explains why it continues to grow, and why it continues to serve a meaningful purpose for so many people?
Mo Fathelbab 17:26
One phrase that I heard quite a lot is it’s lonely at the top. If you’re an entrepreneur, if you’re a CEO, who do you talk to your friends, who you love dearly, with whom you went to high school or college, who don’t have their own businesses, it may not relate to your struggles, they may say, Oh, you’ve got whatever, this car or that house or this much money, do you really have a struggle, your family might be sick of hearing about those struggles. They want you to focus and be present for them. And so it ends up being lonely at the top.
And so to that end, if you’re an entrepreneur, if you’re a CEO, and you don’t have a group to belong to that can help you with navigating life’s issues, then you’re not as armed as someone else. But I think the other thing is, you know, forums really make it sticky. So people might join, because they want to grow their business, but then they come to find real meaningful relationships that are lifelong relationships. I mean, John, I’ll tell you one of my, just maybe because people don’t grasp what it means to be vulnerable and really deep, but I’ll just tell you a little story. My group, we’re so close, we don’t miss anybody’s wedding Bar Mitzvah, a funeral for a family member or anything like that. And one of our members lost his mother. And a funeral was in New York. I flew up.
And he was getting out of his limo at the same time, I was getting out of my Uber. And he saw me when he came over. He hugged me, and he started to cry. And he said, This is the first moment I felt safe to cry. He’d been with his family for a couple of days. But that’s how special a connection we build in these groups. And it’s, it’s so inspiring.
John Corcoran 19:33
Yeah, it’s so nice to be there and to support him in that way. And at that moment, I want to ask you about, you know, you ended up moving on from EO and you started an organization called a forum resources network. What was the concept behind that was the business model, you’ve figured that this concept you could take it and apply it in, you know, into other spheres or other industries?
Mo Fathelbab 19:58
Thanks. actually. So, when I left, I left for two reasons. And, you know, I struggled with that decision for a couple of years. I have to tell you because it was my blood, it was my life, it was my entire professional career, really, since graduating college. And I always thought I’m gonna leave when two things happen. One, I’m not happy for some reason. I have something that I feel very excited about, I’m not going to leave just for one of those two reasons I needed both to happen. And that moment came. And what I believed then that I still believe in my soul to this day is that every human being would be better off if they had a form.
So form resources network was founded to provide forms to other audiences outside of I shouldn’t say outside, in addition to the EEO and the YPO communities that do this work. And so through that organization, we’ve had the fortune to do forums for Google, for underrepresented minorities at Google. And then a subsequent organization that I co-founded alumni forum services, we’ve done peer groups for HBs alumni, Harvard Business, School alumni, we’ve done peer groups for former athletes, we have a client called the post started by a former NFL quarterback, and they provide forums for former athletes. I’ve done work with groups of dentists, I could go on.
But the point is, it’s not just for CEOs or entrepreneurs anymore. You know, if you are interested in growing and improving, and having a powerful group of people who have your back, who have no personal interests that might be in contrast, or in conflict with what you want, I cannot think of something more incredibly profound to help you grow and be the best you could be.
John Corcoran 22:01
Now, of course, you started this organization 97 was kind of the end of the.com, era 9899 2000. And then there’s 911. So take me back to that time period. What are your memories of this time? Was there a struggle in the early days to get clients and to figure out product market fit? Or do you feel like you were able to because of your experience previously, with EO that you were able to get more of a fit, and it took off from the beginning?
Mo Fathelbab 22:34
You know, I made a mistake. Maybe my ego had no way. But when I quit EO, I did not negotiate anything, to continue doing the part of the job that I love doing with the Yo, and I probably could have done that. So as a consequence, in fact, it took me a long time to get on my feet. And I was living in my mother’s basement for 18 months and had $30,000 in credit card debt. And you know what, I wouldn’t change it for the world. 911 I mean, oh, one we also had a dip, and 911 We had a dip. And you know what? Business certainly went down 50%.
At one point, I remember sitting on a park bench with my girlfriend at the time, who’s been my life partner for the last 25 years or so? And, and saying, Listen, you need to know. Money’s a bit tight right now. Business is down. 50%. You know, look, I think that stuff makes you stronger. I think it’s all about attitude. It’s all about adjusting. Looking for opportunities. I don’t I don’t wish to change anything that happened. It was maybe tough at the time, but I think it makes you stronger.
John Corcoran 23:55
Yeah, and now come to the present day you founded a new organization called the International Facilitators Organization. What inspired that?
Mo Fathelbab 24:05
You know, back to my mission from 1997, I think every human being deserves to be in a peer group. So this organization is about creating an ecosystem, a community of facilitators who do this work because I really can’t do that much more of it. I’m pretty maxed out in terms of my schedule, and it’s a blessing. I’m grateful for it. So this organization is about creating certified facilitators to do this work. So we could spread this throughout, and hopefully get to our goal of a billion people in peer groups by 2053. And I know that’s a B hag and the Jim Collins parlons big, hairy, audacious goal. But again, you know, hanging around all these entrepreneurs and CEOs for all these years. If that doesn’t inspire you to have a hug and go for something out there. I don’t know what will happen.
John Corcoran 24:55
Yeah, you know, I was a facilitator for my forum. And I’ve noticed just being around the organization for a number of years that language has changed a little bit and training has changed a little bit, it doesn’t change dramatically. But if you look back on the last 30 years, how are forums run today compared to 30 years ago? And what ways have they changed if at all?
Mo Fathelbab 25:22
I mean, a couple of things. One of them, notably, before the engagement with Google, I remember at the beginning and my discussions with them, they said, Hey, but we want to do this virtually. This is just before the pandemic, John, and I say to them, virtually done any. And my client, that.
John Corcoran 25:44
You are the only one who in fairness, there’s lots of people feeling this, okay.
Mo Fathelbab 25:48
Yeah, so my client at the time, was part of the HBS alumni program that we had put together. And he was very well versed in this process, and, and understood that, you know, there’s, you know, a risk and doing it virtually, which had never been done. But what was really profound, you know, two things. One, the timing, imagine the pandemic happening. And if you remember, the beginning of the pandemic, people are locked away, they’re scared, and they’re not even, you know, leaving their house in many cases. So that combined with the Black Lives Matter movement, made these groups incredibly vulnerable immediately. And they bonded, like I never imagined possible, just on a screen like we are doing right now. And then what happened, which was also an unexpected surprise, is we were able to have meetings with somebody in Rio, and somebody in Lagos, Nigeria, and somebody in Dublin, and somebody in San Francisco and somebody in New York, and before you know it, you were making connections globally, in a way that hadn’t really been done before.
So it was quite amazing and quite profound. And so that was one thing that’s changed from the beginning is this zoom era and the ability to do this, where it’s not always in person. I think another thing is we’ve just got more sophisticated teaching and convincing people of the various tools. So one example that immediately comes to mind is, you know, the word vulnerability I don’t think we used in 1991. It’s become popularized. And thank you, Brene. Brown, I give her a shout every time I can, you know that TEDx talk of hers is just taken off, and I’m glad for it. But I think people today are more predisposed to understanding the value of vulnerability. And I think that’s helping connect with both the ability to get people to sign up for these groups.
And for people to make these groups more meaningful. Because just having a conversation about why be vulnerable, gives people insight as to Oh, my God, I need to do this. So you know, when you ask that question, somebody says, well, that’s how you make connections. Well, yeah, how do you have real relationships, if people aren’t vulnerable? Somebody says, It’s a relief. And you know, we’ve read the book, the body keeps score, some of us have read it. And in our book, they talk about how anxiety and emotional well-being eventually affects your physical well-being and manifest into disease. And so this relief of getting something off your chest isn’t just literally getting it off your chest, but it’s actually getting it off your chest in terms of the impact that it could have on your health. And then they talk about growth, you know, if I’m vulnerable, I grow because I get to address it. And I get to learn from my peers. And, you know, I could go on.
But that’s, that’s, I would say, a new way of thinking about this work. And the value of this work. That’s also been quite profound. We also did some work with David Bradford from the Graduate School of Business at Stanford. And for YPO, not for EO there’s, there’s a refinement of the process by which we help a member where we dig in much more deeply into the emotional space. Because, you know, often we make decisions with our heads, and in his words, David Bradford, we wake up with an emotional hangover. And so when something is really meaningful, it’s not just a rational decision, there’s a huge emotional component to that decision. And in this process, we honor it more to help people really better understand what’s driving their decision-making.
John Corcoran 29:35
Yeah. It’s interesting that you zeroed in with your new organization on the role of the facilitator, which can be different in different contexts. So there’s organizations like Vistage, which have, like a paid facilitator, there’s organizations like YPO, and EO which have kind of a rotation of facilitators but what’s your pitch? If I’m thinking about being a facilitator, what are the benefits to me of being the facilitator? I’m just interested to hear, hear from your perspective.
Mo Fathelbab 30:04
I mean, look, I’ll say this tongue in cheek, but to be in this space is to really have more support and therapy than any human being possibly can. I say that jokingly, but half-jokingly, because I’ve heard that said before from my peers. But it is honestly the most gratifying work I could imagine. Because I really believe we help people in profound ways that are life-changing. And, you know, there’s not a day that I go to work, where I don’t find myself feeling elevated at the end of the day. And knowing that, you know, what, I’ve made a difference for these people. And I hear it from our clients. I like to be careful with how I say those things. Because it may not sound humble, and I don’t like that. But I truly hear from our clients how often this has made a difference for them.
John Corcoran 30:56
For them, just like this is like one of the benefits, I like to think about is it allows you to practice leadership in a safe space. It allows you to practice, it also allows you to frankly observe other leaders in a safe space and see how they would lead and hear their perspective. So maybe if you could reflect a little bit more on that, that kind of role of being a facilitator.
Mo Fathelbab 31:23
Well, you’re more exposed. So imagine the benefit of being in one forum group. Well, now imagine having the ability to see so many form groups. And so there’s the benefit of meaningful relationships all over the world, there’s the benefit of really seeing your work have an impact. There’s the benefit of feeling a sense of fulfillment, or having done something good. Do you know I don’t I don’t do this just for money. Like I’ve always said, If I won the lottery, I would do this for free. And in fact, not that I have won the lottery. But I’m far enough in my career that I do a lot of this for free. Not a lot isn’t more than, say, 10% of our actual engagements.
But you know, just any opportunity where I think there’s a worthy cause, I absolutely will do it for free. I will tell you one extension of it, which has come up during the last few months has to do with the Middle East conflict. And so we’ve had a few clients call and say, Listen, we have members or, or employees that are at each other’s throats, because they’ve gotten into arguments about what’s right, and what’s wrong about this Middle East situation. And can you facilitate a conversation? And so we’ve held these conversations in DC and London, virtually, the first call I got was actually a group from Israel. And just to remind you, I was born in Egypt.
But it was a group from Israel. And really, it’s about providing space for empathy, for listening, for understanding, for building bridges and having people see each other as human beings. You know, the story I shared earlier about my foreign mate, whose funeral was a mother’s funeral I went to in New York, he was Jewish, he is Jewish. And, you know, I think it sort of speaks to the profoundness of the connection that happens when you see somebody as a human being. Yeah, all these other things melt away. It doesn’t matter if they’re Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, or Chinese or Indonesian, or whatever. We’re all people. And I think that often is what gets lost in this world. As we watch the news we’ve forgotten to see each other’s humanity.
John Corcoran 33:45
You mentioned earlier, the impact on the body. I know fitness is really important for you. Talk a little bit about the role that that has played for you in the work that you do. And as an entrepreneur.
Mo Fathelbab 34:00
You know, I, gosh, I started out just maybe three years after college, I mean, I always exercise all through my life. But after college, I forgot because I was working on my career. And we were traveling and doing all these amazing conferences and events. But what really cemented it for me, I think about, Gosh, 10 years ago, I took a course on positive psychology. And I learned that there’s a very direct correlation between exercise and mental health. And I realized that I was working out episodically. I would train for six months for a triathlon. And then I wouldn’t work out for six months because it was my busy season. And I realized that is not good. So now I’m committed. I work out, you know, seven days a week, maybe minimum three or four if I absolutely can’t do more, but generally speaking I’m seven days a week. And part of that has been, you know, first the running and then the triathlons. And now I really love stand up paddleboarding, golf and hot yoga. And I
John Corcoran 35:16
I knew it was interesting. He competed in hot yoga nationally, which I didn’t even know was a thing.
Mo Fathelbab 35:22
You know, it’s one of those things that everybody says John, so you’re not alone. But here’s, here’s, here’s what happened. As you know, I started doing hot yoga after injuring myself in the triathlons. And it was really therapeutic. But I think my competitive nature got the attention of a couple of my teachers. And on two occasions, they said, I’ll coach you if you want to compete. So I said, Well, why not? Let me take a crack at it. I started applying myself and I found some success in it, winning the Mideast regional championship championship for men over 50 and then competing in the Nationals. But basically, you have a bunch of postures to choose from, with different levels of difficulty. And you’re graded by a panel of judges on how well you execute them. And based on that they score you.
John Corcoran 36:15
And are the judges in like this, like, grandstands of the audience all in the hot environment like Well, I’m I’m picturing I’m picturing like, you know, 300 people sweating like watching, you know.
Mo Fathelbab 36:29
The competition, the room is not hot. So daily practice the rooms 100.
John Corcoran 36:33
I got it. Okay. Okay.
Mo Fathelbab 36:35
I listen, I sweat 10 pounds and the daily practice, it’s so hot and humid. And I say 10 pounds, not exaggerating. It’s not always 10. It depends on how difficult the teacher is and how hot the room is. It’s not always perfectly consistent. But sometimes it’s 10 pounds. Wow. And I weigh 150. So that’s a lot.
John Corcoran 36:51
Who needs Ozempic? Cheese, hot yoga? Well, this has been to say.
Mo Fathelbab 36:58
This. So one thing about that sport, which is unfortunate, is the guy who started was caught up in a bunch of bad stuff, we’ll leave it at that. And a lot of these studios today don’t use his name anymore. And they just call it the 26 plus two. But I want to be clear that I’ve not supported that guy with a single penny in my life. I’ve only supported the studio owners. And just be sure that you know, some people have an issue with it, which I do as well.
John Corcoran 37:26
Thank you. Well, I want to wrap up. And I usually remember to warn my guests of this question beforehand. And I have to admit that I didn’t warn you beforehand. So you’ll be forgiven if you want to take a pass on it, or if you need a little time to think about it. But I’m a big fan of gratitude. And I love expressing gratitude to those who’ve helped us along the way in our journey, especially peers and contemporaries. So oftentimes, when I’m interviewing someone who’s in a forum, they mentioned forum mates, I love to hear stories about those sorts of ways in which they’ve, they’ve helped you whether it’s coming over to your house when you needed help to put the pieces back together with the business or whatever. But is there anyone in particular that you would want to shout out and thank for helping you in your journey?
Mo Fathelbab 38:15
You know, I usually thank Vern Harnish because I think he would have changed my life if he hadn’t hired me as Associate Director. You know, my, the rest of my life would look very different right now. But the way you ask the question, I have to honor someone else. And it’s because he did something really unexpected. And it’s really a testament to the forum yet again. But I can’t remember how long ago, let’s call it nine years ago, I had a dip in business and in cash and I mentioned it to my forum. A couple of weeks later, I went to my mailbox. And there’s a check for $20,000 from Tom Sweeney, who, Tom shouted out love you, my friend, my brother. And it said, pay me back when you want. Now, I didn’t actually need the check. I call them. I thank them. I told him I love him. And I tore it up and put it in the trash. But that just shows you what kind of love we have in our group and what kind of love you can have in your group.
John Corcoran 39:20
That’s amazing. That’s amazing. I probably wouldn’t have torn it up. I probably would have put it on maybe over here and be like okay, I’m gonna try not use this. But just in case. I probably would have been me but hey, Mo where can people go to learn more about you and the International Facilitators organization and connect with you?
Mo Fathelbab 39:39
Yeah , thank you. So Mo Fathelbab on LinkedIn, internationalfacilitatorsorganization.com is the website. And I would be honored to help anybody who’s interested in pursuing anything in the line of foreign or being a facilitator or any organization that could benefit from having these groups.
John Corcoran 40:01
Awesome. Thank you so much.
Mo Fathelbab 40:04
Thank you, John.
Outro
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