Mark O’Brien | [Top Agency Series] Rising Up the Ranks From Intern and Doing Sales to Becoming the CEO and Owner of Newfangled

John Corcoran 11:37

Yeah, it is, it’s kind of an odd time. Because if you look at like the s&p 5000, or 500, or whatever it is, shows how much I know about finance. But if you look at it, I think that March or April of 2000, was technically like the peak of the stock market. And then it started to go down from here, but it sounds like it didn’t affect you guys quite yet. And then 911 Of course, happen. So Right. Yeah. affect

Mark O’Brien 12:01

us? Yes. Yeah. So So I was hired in June of 2000. David came in around July of 2000. And yeah, and then things didn’t get any easier. And it’s really good. Eric did let those people go because otherwise he would have burned through all the savings. And then when that hard times really hit it would it would have been done. Wow. Wow. You know, so again, like sobering lesson, great early lesson to get like the the the the mortality of the business, although, but funny, you really I’m sorry. Oddly enough. I didn’t really truly understand the Mahat mortality, Newfangled, 10 years later, 2010. We’ll get to that later. So yeah, so then to that, then 911 happened. And it was a tough time we were we were leaving machine holding paychecks, hoping we got enough money to you know, get paid each month, that kind of thing for a good number of years. And Eric, you know, was just a steadfast leader, you know, provided all of us with hope. We all stayed like we had like no turnover, everybody stayed up to date. And again, we’re just we’re just in it together. It was a wonderful time.

John Corcoran 13:04

But there wasn’t a lot of job hopping after 911 That was a period of time where people were, you know, staying put if they had a job. Yeah,

Mark O’Brien 13:12

right. Yeah, we all want a new thing to Newfangled Cisco. So, you know, that was our mission. Yeah. What time it was it was, you know, the salad days, right. No one’s making much money. I, you know, I eventually made more than $10 an hour, but it was years before I hit 35k years. Wow. years. Wow. Yeah. So, you know, it was what it was glorious. I loved apps, I mean, wouldn’t change a single thing about it? It was so

John Corcoran 13:40

so he, you know, a couple of things happens. There’s a couple of kind of key pivotal points here. There’s the you know, there’s the big firing Black Fridays, you mentioned, there’s 911. There’s the bubble bursting. And then you’ve been there for a couple of years by Oh, 708. You’re getting to a position of possibly acquiring the company. How did that come about? And I know, David’s he big was involved in that as well. And then also we have the financial crisis that hits around that time.

Mark O’Brien 14:06

Yeah. Yeah. Just happened from crisis to crisis.

John Corcoran 14:09

Right. Right. And I can’t imagine you’re socking away a lot of your $30,000 a year to buy the company. So how that happens. I

Mark O’Brien 14:17

know exactly. Yeah. So so Yeah, real quick jump to connect the dots. I moved down to North Carolina. So I was the first one to leave southern New England at that time, we were a local company. We did website development, for part in partnership with agencies like in a 30 mile radius, like we were local, local, local, local, like, you know, Boston was as far as where to go. And so I decided move down North Carolina. I desperately wanted to keep the job, Eric being great to ensure but you know, if you’re gonna go down there might as well knock on some doors. Maybe you can get some business down there. It’s like, okay, great. And so I moved down here and Oh, three. And up to that point, I’d have been like a dev guy was doing sysadmin I was doing programming. I was doing all that kind of stuff. And I liked it. I was was our worst developer I knew that I wasn’t as good as the other guys. I was brand new to it still really, but I really liked it. And I was I was good enough and started knocking on doors. And pretty quickly, Eric and I both realized, oh, like, that’s what I’m good at. And Eric never liked doing that. He wasn’t a sales guy. None of us were ever sales guys. We didn’t you know, that was our thing. We were coders, right. But I found out accidentally, I’m actually a sales guy. And so things started changing really quickly around that I came down here. And we realized together that okay, sales is my thing. And so I started doing more and more and more of that, and really enjoyed it. And, and in our fortune started to change, which was amazing. And so for, you know, once we saw attraction, he may be president. You know, that, that Wow.

John Corcoran 15:51

So like, three, four years from intern to President.

Mark O’Brien 15:54

Yeah, you know what, you know why? You know why? It’s because the sales that funny, it’s all about sales, right? I didn’t know at the time. Yeah, like for me, like, you know, sales. No one really respected sales like,

John Corcoran 16:08

yeah, yeah, I took bhogi I was I was an English major in college, amazing. The parallels food service, all that kind of stuff, to poetry classes in college, they don’t cover sales so much when you’re teaching poetry classes in college.

Mark O’Brien 16:21

In fact, my mentor, I’ve been blessed with great mentors, and the guiding light in my life has been mentors. I mean, like, I blessed is the right word. It’s overused, but blessed really like, like, the powers that be have just put the exact right people in front of me at the right time and saved me so many times. And one of them is my poetry professor for Skander. Who now as a Pulitzer. Wow, it’s amazing. He’s a wonderful, wonderful guy, great poet. And he was my mentor in school on a personal and Scholastic level. And I remember one particular night, we you know, he was the cool professor, so we wouldn’t have class and class would get together at like the students houses and we have wine, it’d be at night instead. Yeah. We idolized him, all of us idolized him. And I know what I vividly remember was sitting around like, like some junky college living room for class one night, and he’s like, listen, terms of career advice, y’all could do whatever you want. And really, you’ve got all the opportunity in the world, but the one thing you could never, ever do, and I want you to promise me never get into sales. One day, he made it, you may not because no matter what anything else, is there I am. Okay, here I am the sales guy. So So but the difference was sales, right? From intern to President, because if the money’s not coming in, the gigs up, right. And for whatever reason, like, our Chief Design Officer, Chris Butler said this sort of way years ago, like when I talk people tend to open their wallets. Right. I’m not trying to do that. But just like, that’s, that’s my gift, like I build trust, or whatever it is, and tend to be good at, you know, making people feel okay about investing and Newfangled. And that’s been my deal the whole way through. And so, and so, yeah, we had we started making money. And that was a big difference. And so yeah, he made me president. And he gave me a lot, a lot of rope. I mean, he was he was a very hands off leader in that way. And let me do a lot. And I just, I just ran with that I was thrilled to run with him proud to run with that. And so

John Corcoran 18:34

and who, you know, that’s, that’s a whole new set of challenges, like managing people and things like that. So, who were you learning from? And you’re, you’re probably in your mid 20s, or late 20s. At this point.

Mark O’Brien 18:47

At this point, I’m like, 27. Yeah. Yeah. From from Eric, you know, he had tons of advice. He had been doing this for a long time. It’s been doing this for I don’t know, maybe 10 years or so at that point. And, and then we were learning we collaborated a lot we learned as we did it, right? We just kind of learned as we went and you know, but he he was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful mentor to me.

John Corcoran 19:06

Yeah. And, and then at what point does someone say, Hey, you want to buy the business, but how did that come

Mark O’Brien 19:11

up? So he just gave me as much leeway as I wanted. And I ended up like, taking everything up. I was I was kind of running the business. And, and here, not kind of I was running the business. But he’d come to me and say, Hey, like, I had this idea of the weekend. Let’s do this thing. And I kept shutting him down, like, okay, good idea. We can’t do that thing. Because we stopped to get good at this thing. And we just talked about these five things have to do like down that road. We can’t go on a new road. Yep. Because we were that particular word. And each time here, it’s like, okay, yeah, yeah. But he was frustrated. He’s, he’s an entrepreneur. He’s, he’s got ideas he wants to go. And I’m, I’m a different kind of entrepreneur, I guess. Like I like to like dig in deep and like, just just make this thing great. But he loves creation, the creative stage and and so we were ABS there, and he decided Okay, I’m not really terribly satisfied. So I’m going to hire David C. Baker, who still wasn’t the MC bakery. I’m still the baker. And David at the time offered a thing that we jokingly said Newfangled called consulting. Right. So you can hire David to consult you on how to become a consultant. Right? Okay. Yep. So Eric went on to do consulting, consulting and and when he went to Nashville, where David lives are lived at the time, and

John Corcoran 20:27

basically to develop a new offering it sounds like because you’re mostly doing websites

Mark O’Brien 20:30

at this point, whole new thing that if Eric wants to do that would be Eric would have like just free rein to do whatever he wanted. I couldn’t help out. Right. You know, what, yeah, I supported it. He’s great, right? Yeah. First day in Nashville, he sat down with David. And he was like, All right, you have this company that you’ve had for 10 years, and I know the company pretty well, because we work together and like you want to do this thing that’s gonna take a ton of time. What some new thing like who’s running Newfangled? And is it called marks runner, Newfangled and Windows? Okay, what does Mark do? And he enumerated the things I do. And he said, Okay, here’s the deal, is really, really clear. When you get back on Monday, you’re gonna do one, two things, you’re going to either sell a component mark, or you’re gonna fire mark. Those are only two choices. Mark has way too much control. You’ve you’ve ceded pretty much everything to him. And he key if you wanted to, could put you in a very bad situation very quickly.

John Corcoran 21:22

And when right anyway, you know that now right at any one employee that has that amount of authority control? Yeah.

Mark O’Brien 21:29

I know that now. Neither of us were, that was not on our radar then. Right. And Eric, jumped on the sale idea. Like he’s like, thought that was amazing. And so this was the first business day of January 2008. And he said, let’s get coffee is a great set down. It’s like, I want to buy it. And I don’t know. Yeah, what’s the price? And you know, we said and kind of probably around like, last year times 1.1x, around in that ballpark? Got to work it up. And like, well, I need to tell my wife, but yeah, it’s like, over coffee. 20 minutes, we just like pretty much agree to do it. Took the entire year.

John Corcoran 22:08

But a lot happened that year, or 2008.

Mark O’Brien 22:10

It was so brutal. It was so brutal. And here you are two guys who both intimately know this business, who completely honestly love and trust each other. Like, like, could it couldn’t be a more stable situation. I had zero money. So that’s an issue. But what was holding it up? Well, just trying to figure out how to pay for this. Right? Because the first half of the year a bunch of banks were interested. And then you know, by the time September came by, got that guy that really like completely gone. Got it. So you can’t get finance. No financing. Okay. zero chance of financing. And Eric didn’t want to do seller financing. He did. That’s what ended up okay. Okay, putting together a really, really complicated plan. That worked, though. And that the biggest issue with that was funny. We had like, kind of like, like four or five, like, we were at the altar for five times the plan. And each time what ended up tanking, it was, um, taxes, like, oh, but right, you have to pay taxes on that check each month, or if the tax thing just kept killing it, like, once we factor taxes, then it’s like, okay, like, that’s not gonna work. Yeah. And so and it was a beautiful plan we put together it took the whole year, it was really complicated, but it worked out. And in the proof that it worked is that it worked, right. So so January 2009. I’m the CEO Eric’s out. And when he’s still advising in, that’s critical. But he’s like, meeting me for the one hour week, and I’m running it so so that was cool. Um, what did not happen to us in 2008 was we didn’t feel any effects of the crash at all business was fine. It was fine. And so it probably

John Corcoran 24:08

made you feel a little bit more confident going into it because one of my questions was gonna be there must have been at some point where you’re like, Oh, crap, I should do this because the market is crashing.

Mark O’Brien 24:18

i Yeah, yeah, there were there are plenty of plenty of those moments. But I you know, I was in charge of sales. I had my finger on the pulse. Like I knew what was happening, you know, in our little world, and it looks pretty good. So just ain’t no problem. So by 2009, first year, pretty good. In 2010. January, February, we saw nothing. Yeah. You

John Corcoran 24:39

mentioned that earlier. You said you didn’t understand the mortality of the company until 2010. So what happened there? Was it just the delayed effects of the bubble or Yeah, financial crisis

Mark O’Brien 24:50

didn’t didn’t didn’t catch up. And sometimes these things have a long tail and that’s why I was really curious about with COVID Like, okay, we’re not feeling now but what’s coming down the pike So, as I’ve told the story over the years, there are a lot of firms who had that kind of experience was like a delayed impact. So we sold nothing, January, February, not nothing, we sold $11,000 in January and $30,000. In February. If we didn’t sell $120,000, every single month, we were screwed. Two months, where we basically sold nothing. And so that’s when I realized, okay, this whole thing could go away. And

John Corcoran 25:24

and you imagine you’re still paying so paying on the on the business, I imagine it’s still

Mark O’Brien 25:28

one year to a seven year deal. Yeah. I’m wondering seven year deal at my house down the line. Like, it’s like, wow, I’ve got I’ve got a baby. Scary, you know, like, freakin terrifying. Yeah. Terrifying. And like, that’s what I earned my SEO wings.

John Corcoran 25:45

Huh? Who did you? Who did you turn to?

Mark O’Brien 25:49

I turned back to the advice David had given us in 2000. So Eric immediately took some of David’s advice. And we together had a plan to work towards other metrics he has, he’s got certain key metrics, you need to be 60% utilized, no more than 45% of your expenses should be taken up and payroll, you should be 20%. profitable, like all these numbers that were like so far out of reach for us in 2000. But we had a plan, like, alright, if we just chip away at these, we’ll get there. Never happened. Never happened. It was always a nice to have, we always knew we weren’t like we should be but like, yeah, hey, we just keep going right? In there when I realized, okay, we could do this whole thing. That’s when all right. And I just spent a lot of time reworking all the finances in my understanding of what I think we could actually do, and restructuring the business, to be able to do those things, while meeting David’s metrics, which meant, again, letting go of a significant portion of staff

John Corcoran 26:46

did layoffs again, except this time is you doing the layoffs. It’s me, what was that experience? Like for you personally?

Mark O’Brien 26:53

Yeah, I had a distinct memory, of driving into work one day, and this is one, like, it’s just so overwhelming, and you feel like you’re buried, and there’s no clear way out, right? And you’re completely leveraged. A lot of employers depending on you, you know, this is their livelihood, too. And that’s driving it in my really old Honda Accord, and jumped on the country road. And I was like, You know what, I’m going to look back on this time fondly. Like, it just I wasn’t, I didn’t decide I was going to it just hit me like, a truth just sent me like, I’m gonna look back and really enjoy this time. Look back on it and be grateful for it. And I am like that i. And I’ve seen this other firms too, whenever somebody else buys a business or takes control it like real control of it, and transfers, like, there’s always a time when they have to show up. And it’s a crossroads. And it’s do or die like that, that moment of truth happens. And it happened to me. And it completely changed my perspective. I learned an immense amount in a matter of weeks. And it worked and worked, we started hitting those numbers, within a few months. We like pulled out of the nosedive, we did go into a little bit of debt, while I’m also doing this buyout. But it worked. And we’ve stayed true to those numbers pretty much ever since.

John Corcoran 28:26

Wow, amazing. Amazing. Yeah. And that was so that we’re talking about 2010 there. And then, you know, we come flash forward to the pandemic. Right. And actually, in the meantime, in 2019, you You went completely remote, which ended up being a really wise decision going into the pandemic.

Mark O’Brien 28:49

Yeah, so the next big touch point was 2015, where we, we adopted the system traction, and we adopted the Strategic Coach program those two things at the same time. And through our early stage learnings in both those programs, we we a core element of Eos is this hedgehog concept that’s taken from Jim Collins Good to Great, which is what can you be the best in the world that and we were web developers. And but we were marketing focused, like your mission. And my mission is the same generating business. Right? That was our mission back then. But we did it through web development, because for that 20 year period, the website was the hardest part of the whole thing. Right? That was the mystery. That was the magic. And so we were good at solving that mystery. But But by the time we get to the, you know, 2015 or so

John Corcoran 29:34

it wasn’t as hard by then. Yeah, it

Mark O’Brien 29:36

was hard by that. Yeah, it was like, you know, Wix and WordPress. Yeah, stuff going on. And yeah, and that was a little hard stuff. And so like, our code is so much better that the clients gonna generate more business code our codes better, like that’s not going to happen. Like, if our point is during business, we got to start working on all the other stuff that can’t do. The content is the hard stuff, email, our stuff. The CRM is the hard stuff like those don’t was the hard things that like, they don’t have a website, but what are they doing with it? And so we completely flipped the company in 2016 from being a web development company to being a digital marketing consultancy. And so that we’re able to do because of the rigor of Eos EOS allows you to take these massive concepts and break them down into the smallest possible bites, and just take baby steps and track every step. And then that results in really beautiful, amazing change. It was hard, it was painful.

John Corcoran 30:27

Yeah, what a major change from 20 years of web development to you know, starting to consultant in initially understand you just did consulting, on content marketing, right? And then eventually, you realize that you wanted to layer in the done for you element as well.

Mark O’Brien 30:42

Exactly, yeah. So for the early years, 16 718 19. Yeah, it was it was that and what we’ve evolved to now is just more of the doing, we used to tell people to do, and then they’re doing, what’s happened is people getting busy, and so don’t have time to do it. If they don’t do it, then they’ll see results from work. So don’t work together. So now it’s just we just do all of it. We write the emails, we send the emails, we write all the content, we create the ads, we design, the ads, we run all of that we, you know, we advise on the website, we do not build and design the website, that we do everything else now, and you just pay one price, and we just do all of that. And so in what in what we need now from our clients, just the minds, that’s all we ask our clients is their is their time, their focus in their intellect. If they give us that, then we can take that utiful in wholly unique raw material, and make sure that we’re driving them getting the most value out of that for them. That’s how we work now. That’s our deal. And it’s wonderful. It’s exceptional, but that 15 and a 19 year before the pandemic we decided to go remote. That was the next big change. You know, we had gotten really lacks in our work from home policy over the years just kind of we always treat our people like they were adults. And you know, you got to be the doctor go the doctor, you know, you’re gonna do your job. Do it incredibly well. Yeah, well, excellence. And yeah, if you need to go do something, go do something. But what ends up happening is, you know, we’re, we’re half the people that have the time, right. And it wasn’t really worth spending 12k a month in an office anymore. So we got rid of the office. And we decided to do like a we work day and we got together one day a week we work and I was useless. It was It was awful. I in the history of the company is my least favorite time that I’m usually part of is it was not good. And but we had figured out how to work remotely only mostly through zoom and slack. Because over four days a week we’re dissolving houses. And so we had that fully under our belts baton, that pandemic came. Wow. You know, so we were to this timing. It was amazing. It was just amazing. So we made that decision, it was mostly financial. But now looking back, that’s not at all the main reward from that. The main benefit we to this moment, continue to derive from being remote is that when we post a job, we are looking across the continent. Yeah, right. One person in North America for this one job posting in Raleigh, where I live I live in Chapel Hill, a triangle area of North Carolina. It’s a great area, it’s uh, Dukes here, UNC is here NC State’s here, Wake Forest is, you know, hour away, like, great education system. Tons of people, you know, just it’s wonderful area. But it can’t compete with North America. Yeah, and so now, now, and we’ve grown tremendously over the past few years went by 11 people to just about 30 In about two years. And if we were still dealing with like, parking spaces and desks and square footage per person, and how to load and unload the dishwasher. No way and and with a local, you know, employee

John Corcoran 33:50

base, right? Because you’re limited who you can hire?

Mark O’Brien 33:53

Yeah, could just no way we could have done it. And so we have an amazing team of wonderful, wonderful experts. And they’re from all over the place, and it works out great.

John Corcoran 34:02

Yeah, yeah. And when the pandemic hit, so take me back to that period. You know, you’d been through all these roller coasters before. I mean, no. Did you scared at any point? Or were you kind of like, well, we’ve been through bad things before.

Mark O’Brien 34:18

Yeah. And each time you go through hell, you know, the second trip isn’t quite as bad. Yeah. And so, you know, we, we, we felt confident, we felt confident that, you know, yes, we’re probably gonna face of adversity, but that we’ll be able to figure out and get our way through it. Not that would come out unscathed. It might hurt a lot, but we’re, we always felt confident and hopeful that would survive, right? So yeah. And in the early days, you know, it’s like April of 2020. When everyone’s like, Okay, this is real and like we last year, we did a number of cancellations with one job we contracted and the guy just couldn’t do it. So that completely disappeared and some other clients come back but is a little bit Okay, like, Oh, this is gonna be every month for next 20 months or what? That was it. That was it. And May was kind of quiet June but then by the time we hit July it was it the opposite, you know, because we do digital marketing people can go to conferences, they can’t see a prospect like it’s this, it’s this. And so the same time the day the shutdown happened, it was like, what it was like March 13. was the day when like everyone’s like, okay, yes, real driving home, Laura and I were driving home from Bureau digital event, owner camp and Charleston. And we had an interview with a candidate who was we were looking to hire to start our paid, dedicated paid media department and interview that day, that day, we hired him. And he has had a massive impact on the company, getting into paid media. Net, we now have four full time people in that. And that combined with everything else we do has just generated massive results for our clients. It was the missing link. Yeah, just pay me by itself doesn’t do anything. Pin me the right way with this guy does it? And now the people on the team do it with everything else we do is just magic.

John Corcoran 36:14

Yeah, talk about that. Because there’s a lot of people that, you know, some fall into the content marketing camp, some fall into the paid media camp, and they’re kind of siloed and separate. Yep. So talk a little bit about your philosophy around kind of the bridge between those two.

Mark O’Brien 36:27

Yeah, sure. We were, we were camped cut out marketing, all the way in front since since 2000. Eric started writing a monthly newsletter every month and poured so much effort into it every month, starting in 2000. So he was on the content marking training very early. And we were staunch believers in organic SEO and paid media is crap. Like he didn’t believe in it. If there’s one thing I could change one thing and all of Newfangled that I could change it was that I wish we had gotten a paid media as early as possible. 2000 2001. Whenever we were dead wrong. We were so horribly wrong. And yeah, gosh, I wish I could change that. But hey, I’m glad to have one did but the timing. It happened the day that the shutdown happened. Wow. Wow. So we massively upped our game, right when this happened, and Jason was very able to very quickly start generating results for our clients by just like, basically, pouring,

John Corcoran 37:28

get fuel on the fire, basically. Yeah,

Mark O’Brien 37:31

yeah. And so that was that was critical. And, yeah, like we because we do what we do. And because of the changes we made, we were in sort of the right place at the right time. And that, that that was gonna work out really well.

John Corcoran 37:46

And you end up tripling during the pandemic close. Wow, amazing. Amazing. Well, I know we’re running out of time here. And I want to wrap things up with the the question. This has been wonderful, really great insights and everything. But I want to wrap things up. But the question I always ask, which is my gratitude question. I’m a big fan of gratitude. And if you look around at your contemporaries, so you know, others in your industry, however you wanted to find that your peers and contemporaries, who do you respect, who you admire, you’ve mentioned David a number of times, you mentioned Eric, the owner and founder of Newfangled.

Mark O’Brien 38:19

Yeah. Yeah. So the most immediate day to day sense, it’s the clients of the employees, because that’s how we, we learned from the clients, the clients teach us what is actually happening out there, we learned through all of their, we measure everything and through their realities, we learn. And, you know, we serve at their pleasure, right. And so we’re so lucky, I love that we get to work with creative and digital agencies, those are our clients. That’s incredible. There’s such amazing people, and we work with wonderful, wonderful, wonderful firms. And so many of them become my closest friends. Like it’s, I enjoy the fact that I get to make a living and all of a sudden make a living by serving people like that is just incredible. And then the staff we have, like, you know, I’m good at a little tiny thing. And we have 27 other people who are great at their own silos and and all that put together is just so thrilling and enriching and I could never be like a sole consultant because I get so much from the community of Newfangled and so immense gratitude for both of those groups of people. And you know, mentioned David Blair, someone who comes up all the time. Blair’s wonderful wonderful Blair and Blair ends here and learned tremendous amount from him over the years he’s just a wonderful wonderful guy he’s he’s been a he’s been a great guide for me and great support and everything else it yeah without doing and Blair might be very different professionally but now more and more just really personally. But one guy I want to give a shout out to and I think you should talk to have on on the on the podcast if you haven’t yet is Carl Smith from the Bureau. I have

John Corcoran 40:02

of course, that’s how we first connected. Yeah, yeah. Carl is awesome. Yeah.

Mark O’Brien 40:06

Get on the show. Yes. Oh, yeah. Okay, great. Yeah, yeah. So Carl, Carl is just a real treasure. This week in particular, you’re probably on his emails as well. I’ve just found myself being so grateful for how good he is what he does his job is really unique. He, he shepherds, a massive community of lots of very different people. He does, yeah. And so like, I could never do it as well as he does. And it’s really genuine Louis is. And he has a way of just being so relatable and supportive to so many different kinds of people in different situations all the time. And that’s who he is, day in, day out. I’ve seen him in all kinds of situations personally, professionally, and it’s just who he is. And I’ve just found myself this week in particular means really appreciative of the role he plays in in this small world that we all occupy,

John Corcoran 41:01

he does do an amazing treasure, amazing job and care. And that is so hard to curate a community and keep it vibrant and engaged and all that stuff. He does an amazing job with it. That’s a great shout out. Mark. This has been wonderful. is the website, where can people go anywhere else that they can go to check you out? Or is that the place to go? That’s the place to be?

Mark O’Brien 41:22

That’s the place.

John Corcoran 41:24

That’s great. That’s the place to be. Excellent, Mark. This has been a great walk through your background, lessons learned and all that kind of stuff. Thanks so much.

Mark O’Brien 41:34

Thanks, John. Great seeing you. Appreciate that.

Outro 41:36

Thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast with John Corcoran. Find out more at And while you’re there, sign up for our email list and join the revolution. And be listening for the next episode of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast.