Matt Zemon: 12:30
A couple of years into it. But yeah, he was 16 when he said that he’s just turned 20. So that was four years ago. Yeah. People wondered what’s going on.
I mean, I quickly, very quickly got someone else to run my business.
John Corcoran: 12:43
And you didn’t have that person before.
Matt Zemon: 12:47
They were with me, but I moved them into a different role and really tried to make sure that I could spend my time focused on consciousness and not on panels.
John Corcoran: 13:01
Yeah.
Matt Zemon: 13:02
And that has been great. I mean, I’ve been on almost a six, seven year sabbatical, deeply, deeply studying, deep, deeply feeling, working with spiritual communities who are using psychedelics. We call them entheogens when they’re used for spiritual purposes, learning how different people serve these medicines, learning about how people take them. How do I take these insights and awakenings and awarenesses that happen in the medicine? How do I take that spiritual experience and turn that into a spiritual life? How do I move forward without forgetting those things?
Very much subscribing to the theory of I’ve been who I am the entire time I just forgot. And I layered stories and stories and stories on top of me to the point where I wasn’t me, I wasn’t acting as me. And how can I move through the world with that awareness and that presence and that’s that is the practice. That’s what happens when people think, oh, I’m coming to psychedelics for a cure is often said. And I can tell him all the time, psychedelics don’t cure anything.
These are catalysts which help put us into a state where then we can remember who we are. We can remember where we came from, our own voice can come forward and can come out. We don’t need gurus or shamans or healers. It’s not about that. It’s a co-creation and a remembrance.
And there’s a lot that I have learned and that people can learn using these tools. And there’s other ways up the mountain as well. It’s not the only tool, and it’s not a tool for everybody.
John Corcoran: 14:42
You mentioned trying different psychedelics. What was the first one you tried and what are your thoughts on the range of different psychedelics out there? Because some are legal like ketamine. Many are not legal. Many are hard to access, hard to find.
And you have to be careful about where you consume them because of local laws.
Matt Zemon: 15:02
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Johns Hopkins talks about. So let me back up. We talk about what we’re talking about safety here. And I never say psychedelics are safe.
None of them are safe. Let’s be clear on that. But they can be. What I talk about is relative risk. So there’s a study at Imperial College, Doctor David Nutt, and he said, let’s forget how drugs are classified, but let’s just look at harm to self and harm to others.
And on the far left hand side of his chart, he talks about alcohol as the 72 most dangerous drugs for self and others. Okay, great.. And you move your way down and you get to tobacco and you move all the way, all the way down to the right hand side. You get to mushrooms.
It’s a six and six is less than 72, relatively safe. And a lot of harm can happen in the six. So for entrepreneurs and for people who are trying to reduce the risk as much as possible, the question is what do you do? And what Johns Hopkins says and the research says is you pay attention to three things. You pay attention to the source.
Where did your drugs come from? Set. What is your mindset going in and setting? What is the physical environment that you are doing this medicine in? There’s no right or wrong.
It’s just what’s right or wrong for you. And if you can pay attention to those three things, the probability of having a bad outcome is very low. But probably many of us have heard stories about people who’ve had very challenging experiences with psychedelics. And the most probable cause is one of those 3 or 2 of those things not being properly secured. Just ran around the block though.
You asked what? What medicines have I tried?
John Corcoran: 16:38
No, that was a great answer though, around, you know, because that’s an important point about safety, because that’s often what I thought for many years. I thought, oh, you know, LSD is awful bad, mushrooms are bad, psychedelics are bad. And I’ve had police officers who told me that, you know, I get called out for alcohol issues on calls all the time. I have never been called out for an issue related to mushrooms, you know? And so as far as he was concerned, he said, I would much rather the whole world consume mushrooms and illegal, you know, and alcohol is illegal or not.
People just don’t partake in it. So it’s just crazy, the world that we live in because we have something that’s so damaging, like alcohol that is so socially accepted and yet it’s so much more dangerous.
Matt Zemon: 17:30
Yeah, I really just didn’t think about it in these terms. I just, I mean, I grew up in a prohibition. I just didn’t know it was a prohibition. And I didn’t realize that these were just philosophies of operating. And I never thought twice about altering my state with alcohol.
Unlike the way I’ve been fed about, oh, danger, danger, danger with drugs. And only once I got into this when I learned that psilocybin sticking with that active ingredient, mushrooms, is both non-toxic and non-addictive. Yeah, there’s only three known fatalities ever to psilocybin that’s been tracked, and that’s mostly from behavioral challenges. So yeah, it’s been fascinating. So psilocybin to answer your question, the magic mushrooms was my first entry.
I’ve had ketamine from different parts of the medical space. And I think that’s really an interesting one for entrepreneurs to be aware of because just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s right. And what I mean by that is there is a philosophy within medicine. So there are medical providers who are going to who can sell ketamine legally in all 50 states, who believe it’s just a biochemical reaction. So you can go into your ketamine clinic and wherever you are, and you can buy your package and they’ll put you in a dentist chair, and you might have big screens in front of you or allowed to use your phone, and they’re going to stick an IV in your arm, and you’re going to have ketamine experience 100% legal.
And they believe it’s just a biochemical reaction. There are other ketamine providers who are going to give you preparation sessions. They’re going to put you in a nice comfy room with a blanket and an eye mask and a music playlist and soft lights, and afterwards they’re going to help you integrate what came up for you. Also legal. They believe it’s a biochemical, psychosocial, spiritual process.
This is very much about consumers. Beware of what’s right for you. There are also providers where you can buy your ketamine online and have it shipped to your house, and you can get lozenges and even shots. It’s not that it’s wrong, it’s much less expensive. And for people where that’s a big challenge, it’s beautiful.
And for people in remote areas, it’s a beautiful option and they need to know that they’re not getting the same level of support as the others and just be able to supplement. So there’s no right or wrong, but it’s very much of consumer beware. And what do you want? What do you believe in? Do you believe it’s just biochemical?
Okay, go for that. Are you looking for something deeper? You have to ask the questions.
John Corcoran: 20:04
What’s it? What’s fascinating to me is there are people who are very left-brained, analytical, science based people with maybe medical degrees, you know, that sort of thing. Who then goes through the experience and they say it’s not biochemical or it’s something more. It’s something bigger than that, and they’re certain of it. It’s really interesting to see those types of responses that people have.
Matt Zemon: 20:29
Oh, it’s amazing. And having done that, I mean, I had no faith when once my mom died, I was like, I’m done with this. There’s no God that would do this. And I had no faith at all. No, no daily practice.
My, my, my life was pretty. I’d get up, I’d go to work or whatever I was doing. I’d come back, I’d have dinner with the family. Maybe I’d go watch a show or do some more work and repeat. I didn’t make time for community.
I didn’t make time for clubs. I didn’t make time for anything outside of generating revenue for the house. And my life is completely different now. And I just, I didn’t. I just didn’t know what I was missing and what I was missing were the things that fed my feed, my heart and my soul. All right.
Sticking with drugs. We talked about ketamine.
John Corcoran: 21:16
So yeah. Okay. We talked to two of them. Yeah.
Matt Zemon: 21:19
I’ve experienced ayahuasca a number of times. Just this past summer, as an example, I went down with a group of veterans to Peru, a group called Heroic Hearts Project, which sends veterans to Central and South America, and now to Oregon, where they can access legal psychedelics. I was putting a book together called The Veterans Guide to Psychedelics to benefit the Heroic Hearts Project, and that was fascinating to see how that medicine was used with shipibo healers. It’s a community down in Peru.
John Corcoran: 21:50
And what was it like for those veterans? Imagine some had PTSD or other traumas.
Matt Zemon: 21:56
They were brain injury, PTSD. It was so incredible to watch them. First of all, the Heroic Hearts Project does an amazing job with their veterans. They give every veteran individual coaching and then group coaching in advance of these experiences. They then send them down with a member of the Heroic Hearts team down into Peru or Mexico or Oregon.
They have time to acclimate. They then go through three different ayahuasca ceremonies another day to acclimate. Then afterwards, when they get back, they have three more individual sessions and three more coaching sessions. It’s a beautiful process. Watching these veterans of various ages experience this medicine and this medicine that works so profoundly on things like shame and blame and guilt and helps put them into a state.
Again, I don’t believe in medicine. I don’t believe it is healing. I believe it puts the person at the point where they can heal themselves. And by reducing shame and blame and guilt and bringing things up and bringing it close, where they can look at it and analyze it and then emotionally move through it. It’s incredible to watch.
And I say all that and with strong encouragement that if an entrepreneur is listening to this and says, okay, that’s great, that works for them. What would I do? The thing that I would add, if possible, is that you do this in a place where you can have a community to move into afterwards, community that you can talk to, a community that you can reflect on, a community that can help you integrate on an ongoing basis, these experiences and these insights and these awakenings that happen on the medicine. But yeah, it’s incredibly powerful for the veterans. It is amazing to me that we allow almost 18 veterans a day to kill themselves.
And we don’t offer more tools for psychiatrists and psychologists and coaches to use with this particular population. I don’t know if you know, John, but since nine over 11 there’s been about 7000 combat deaths. So active service members were killed in combat from nine over 11 till today. In that same time period, over 30,000 veterans and service members have killed themselves. So it is an epidemic.
It is a problem. And it is a problem that can be solved, at least partially solved by allowing these medicines to be used with them.
John Corcoran: 24:21
And I don’t remember the exact examples, but I know I’ve read of studies that have that veterans or people with PTSD have participated in that have had dramatic impact in a positive way from experiences with psychedelics. Do you want to talk a little bit about those?
Matt Zemon: 24:39
Yeah, I’m happy you’re referring to the two phase three clinical trials with MDMA that occurred and where they gave people with treatment resistant post-traumatic stress disorder. So let me just slow down here for a minute. These are people where nothing has worked. They’ve tried.
John Corcoran: 24:55
They’ve tried it all.
Matt Zemon: 24:56
The antidepressants, they’ve tried the talk therapies. Nothing has worked. And they’ve given them three sessions with MDMA, with therapy before and therapy after. In those two clinical trials, it was like 78%, 78% Percent emerged without qualifying with having PTSD anymore.
John Corcoran: 25:17
That’s incredible.
Matt Zemon: 25:18
It’s incredible. So our government didn’t approve it. The FDA did not approve it on this last round. But we are hoping that with the with the new administration and the new the revised look at this that that they’ll have some mercy and and say the science it the science is good enough and and we need another tool and we know almost 18 people or 18 veterans a day are dying. We can do better than that.
John Corcoran: 25:47
It’s crazy. I mean, I can think of a friend who is a therapist and who I work with. Actually imprisoned populations have worked with imprisoned populations. And, you know, it’s crazy because it’s like a lot of our therapists. And I don’t want to. I’m not trying to denigrate the profession at all, but there are therapists who will say that it’s like we have these sets of tools that don’t work that well, but it’s the tools that we have.
And then there’s this other big tool over here which we can’t use, and that is far more effective. And it frankly, is not legal. And it’s just a shame. You know, I really hope and I and I also can think of another friend who had PTSD. I was in this small group talking about this with this small group and had really, really bad PTSD their entire life and had one session with MDMA.
And this is a very analytical, intelligent person, had one session with them and finally was like nothing works. Trying it all doesn’t work to help me with my PTSD. And what they said to this group was that the experience of that journey on MDMA wiped away their PTSD, like gone like that, and also that the experience of that journey, the loss of that trauma of the PTSD was this amount of the entire experience, and I’m waving with my hands. For people who are listening to this. Like the experience was so much larger than the solving of the PTSD piece.
And to me, that just blew me away, that someone who suffered so dramatically, you know, finally took it into their own hands and said, legal or not legal, I’m going to do this. And, and, and a solution actually existed to help them with their pain.
Matt Zemon: 27:35
Yeah. It’s incredible to hear those stories and and I can I can share a personal story along those lines where I hadn’t, I hadn’t experienced during my, my puberty years with a, with a family member ten years old or that was traumatic. And it was something that even in my EO form, I couldn’t talk about. If anyone made a joke adjacent to this, my ears would burn. I’d get a pit in my stomach and in a Psychedelic journey.
I was right back there. And what they teach us is when we see something that’s scary or uncomfortable, don’t resist it. If you see a dragon, Bill Richards says, crawl up its nose and look at its eyes. So I followed directions. Okay, what are you here to teach me?
Why am I back here? I don’t want to be here. And I was able to see the entire experience. Not through my eyes, but through hers. And without condoning the behavior, I was able to understand the humanity I was able to understand.
Wow. Okay. This was a human who was so lonely, was so rejected, and was dealing with substance use challenges. And again, I don’t have to condone, to understand and to find empathy. And with that, I could also remind myself that I wasn’t the adult in the room and that there wasn’t anything that I didn’t need to carry.
I don’t need to be embarrassed by this. And it just went away. And it’s shocking to me that this is something I carried around for decades and it just went away. And I hear that a lot with people who have all sorts of different reasons that they come to the medicine and those things. This is not uncommon.
The other group that this is really incredibly powerful for is people facing end of life distress.
John Corcoran: 29:29
And there’s been some studies on that as well. I’ll point people to the How to Change Your Mind documentary, which is on Netflix, which is based on the book by Michael Pollan, which talked a bit about some of these studies of people facing end of life terminal illnesses, that sort of thing, and helping them dramatically in their waning weeks or months.
Matt Zemon: 29:52
Yeah. It is. It is amazing to me that it just seems so inhumane that someone has a terminal illness and is feeling, of course, they’re feeling distress and anxiety and depression and end of life. Despair. The idea is that we’re going to give them a medicine, an antidepressant, see if it works, and then if it doesn’t, wean them off and try it again.
Versus one dose of psilocybin, which there’s a beautiful study at NYU. And they gave terminal cancer patients one dose of psilocybin. And it was almost an 80% response rate, a reduction in depression, anxiety, and distress. It’s a big number one dose. They followed up with those still living, by the way, four and a half years later.
And it was like 77% still said this still affecting me. So not only does it have an immediate reaction, it has a reaction that lasts. I love one of the things I’m excited about is in the ceremonial world, we’re used to working with people who are dying and working with their loved ones. So I worked with a group recently. It was a woman with terminal stage four cancer, her husband, her two children, her two best friends.
And it was a goodbye ceremony. And those are so beautiful. I’m excited when I start seeing there’s a study being done up in Maryland right now with cancer patients. They get to pick one loved one and they both get MDMA. And they’re studying the results.
And like, of course the results are gonna be amazing. Of course they are. What kind of when you take away the shame, the blame and guilt, when you take a medicine that helps us remember that we are spiritual creatures, having a human experience when we believe in our body, that this is not the end, but it’s a transition, of course, that alleviates depression and anxiety. And then that person who is dying oftentimes takes the role within the family, within the friends of saying, I’m okay, I’m okay, I’m going to be okay. And you know what?
Are you okay? And there’s so much healing that can be done. And if there are conversations that need to be had when the shame, the blame and the guilt comes away and the time span that is short becomes apparent, those conversations can happen and people can put aside the pettiness that separated them. Oh, you took the wrong political side. You took the money back on whatever day you whatever, those things can go away and healing can happen while we can still be on the same plane together.
And it’s just beautiful work.
John Corcoran: 32:32
Yeah, I can see how it moves you being able to be a part of all this. And I can see also why you have put so much energy into it. Written books, done speeches, all that stuff. Matt, we’re about out of time, but we covered a lot. But I don’t want to let you off the hook with the different medicines.
So psilocybin you mentioned ayahuasca, you mentioned MDMA. You mentioned it. One thing that I’m kind of curious about is that they’re kind of loosely grouped into psychedelics. I don’t believe psychedelics is a medical term.
Matt Zemon: 33:10
No, it’s it’s mind or soul manifesting. It’s a made up word from the 60s. The. All right. If I have to, I’m going to try to be tight here because of time.
We have the classic psychedelics, things like mushrooms, ayahuasca, and iboga. We have synthetic psychedelics. That’s like LSD, MDMA, there’s hundreds of synthetic psychedelics. And then we have really what’s a disassociative? Ketamine is not a psychedelic.
It’s a dissociative anesthetic, but it operates similarly enough and it’s better marketing. So they call it a psychedelic, but it’s really not the if I have to pick one more medicine to talk about. So I’m going to group it this way. Psilocybin is. Think of it as like the interconnectedness of all things.
It’s a medicine that when you take it, you remember that you are not separate and apart from nature. You are nature. And that for me has been, yeah, has been incredibly freeing to understand how supported I am by the world, period. I don’t need to do anything to breathe and to enjoy this universe that has so many gifts everywhere. Psilocybin reminds me of that.
And I can see that you and I might look like separate waves. We’re all part of the same ocean, and I can see that I can understand it. When we get into MDMA or MDA, those are empathogens. Those are heart openers. So when we take those medicines, we feel love for ourselves and for others.
And it’s beautiful for PTSD. It’s beautiful for couples therapy when a couple, when a partner can say to the other, oh my God, I love you so much. And when you do this, it makes me feel this way. And instead of reacting, the other party can hear it and can feel it and can say, oh my goodness, I know you’ve said that a hundred times and I never heard it until now. And I’m sorry, that’s not how I want you to feel.
And I’m going to act with a different level of awareness moving forward. And then they do. So heart openers are that second class and the third class would be things like or not things. It would be specifically five Meo DMT, which is also known as buffalo or the toad.
John Corcoran: 35:20
This is a funny one because it comes from a frog.
Matt Zemon: 35:23
It does. It comes from the Sonoran Desert toad. It’s a venom from the toad. There is a synthetic version that’s very effective. And there’s people who strongly advocate not using the natural, only the synthetic.
And they have a belief system around that. There’s others who say, no, you’ve got to use it from the toad because it comes with other stuff that’s not in the synthetic. It’s and there is a good reason. There are. There are unethical harvesters who harm the toads.
So again, being careful of where your medicine comes from. But what I like about this medicine is unlike the others. There’s no subject and object. It’s the only non-duality medicine, which means. And the other medicines.
You might not be you, but you’re something and you’re in a some, some framework of time and some framework of place with five meo. I call it dissolving into math. Like you take this medicine, you inhale it. Typically there’s other ways to take it. And within about 10s I just drop into the vibration of the universe.
There’s no me, there’s no time, there’s no place. There’s just this whole steady vibration and light and. And I’ve just never experienced a feeling like I have. They call it the god molecule. Many people say it’s like your personal conversation with whatever it is that you consider a source.
John Corcoran: 36:40
It’s also very fast-paced. Right?
Matt Zemon: 36:42
Very. You’re talking about a 20 minute journey from there. There are ways to extend it. But for most people it’s fast acting and 20 minutes. Again like the others.
Be careful of. I don’t really recommend it. There’s. There are places that you can go down and just have one toad experience. It’s a lot.
It’s a lot to take on. So I would think twice about that there are retreats though that just serve toad. And you go down and you do preparation and you have a few different five meal experiences over time. There are other retreats that you might have a heart opener one day and the interconnectedness of all things another, and then a toad experience. And I think that builds it up quite naturally for people. So just be aware that’s a heavier, stronger medicine and typically not a first time into the pond type of type of tool.
John Corcoran: 37:35
And two things I want to point out about this is that one, I believe all these medicines are considered non-addictive. Yep. Correct.
Matt Zemon: 37:44
Everyone except ketamine. Weirdly, the only one that’s legal in all 50 states is the only one that has addictive potential.
John Corcoran: 37:49
Interesting. So non addictive. And also as far as we know again not totally harm free but not harmful like meth or like cocaine or something like that, even though it’s grouped into the same categorization legally, at least here in the United States.
Matt Zemon: 38:06
Yeah, these are all scheduled in the same category. Well, yeah. All schedule one. Meaning there’s no medical use. Cocaine at least has some medical use according to our government.
But yeah, no biological risk of addiction. Things like MDMA. That heart opener I was talking about. There are kids who end up using it more frequently as a behavioral, but they also have a regulator where you can burn your receptors out and MDMA is no longer effective. But yeah, there’s you don’t there isn’t a lethal dose of psilocybin or LSD that anyone knows there isn’t risk of, of addiction with either of those, those medicines and.
John Corcoran: 38:47
See how they’ve been grouped like that for so long.
Matt Zemon: 38:50
They’ve just been grouped like that. If you’re curious, though, about your particular risk profile with these medicines, one one reference I always give is Doctor Ben Malcolm. So if you go to Spirit Pharmacist, this is a pharmacy and all he does is medical intakes for people who are considering using psychedelics. And why do I recommend a third party? Emily.
Doctor Emily is another one with a K. If you’re looking at a retreat. So you’re an entrepreneur and oh, I’ve heard about this retreat in Jamaica or Costa Rica or Mexico and it’s $7,000. Okay, great. And they have an interest in selling you a seat.
So if you’re if you’re curious, I have this weird thing or this other I want my own information first go to an A Ben or an Emily. First get your own information. Find out what they think about your risks with psilocybin or MDMA or whatever else that you’re thinking of, and then decide, once you have that power, what you want to do with that. Okay. I still want to work with ayahuasca.
Great. I’m now going to go to Peru and go to this retreat center. Amazing. And the same thing is true if you’re working with an underground therapist or a coach. The same thing is true if you’re thinking about a ketamine clinic that’s above ground, the same thing is true.
If you’re going to go to one of the 500 to 1000 psychedelic churches that exist in America, you may want to get your own medical check if you have anything that’s. I have a parent who’s bipolar or schizophrenic, or I’m taking specific prescriptions, or I’m doing chemo, and I want to figure out how to move psychedelics into my chemo regiment. Yeah, lots of things are possible.
John Corcoran: 40:30
Look into your personal life. Yours is personal. Yeah, yeah. That’s great. Well, well, Matt, this has been great.
I want to wrap up with my last question, which is my gratitude question. I’m a big fan of giving guests a little bit of space at the end here to acknowledge anyone who has been with, you know, on the journey with them, so to speak, not just a psychedelic journey, but the journey of life and anyone in particular you want to thank?
Matt Zemon: 40:56
Yeah, I think for today, since this is an entrepreneurs focused podcast, I have my dear friend Russ, who’s been with him and I started our journey in EO on the same day, same training. We went through all those years talking about how to be a better, more effective person, spouse, business owner. And then we’ve been on different components of this journey. And he’s one of the guys when I’m feeling challenged, I can call him and know that he’s going to laugh and be like, how’s that working for you? Of course, this is right.
Of course it’s good. How’s it working for you? And I just love his constant optimism that everything is exactly as it’s needed to be. And the faster I can get to acceptance, the faster I can move through this.
John Corcoran: 41:42
We should all have trust in our life. Everybody should have that in there. Yeah. Matt, where can people go to learn more about you, connect with you, your website, LinkedIn, anything like that?
Matt Zemon: 41:51
Yeah. mattzemon.com is my website. I’m active on LinkedIn. I’m active on Instagram.
All my books are on Amazon and everywhere books are sold. And if you are looking, I take calls all the time for people who have questions. If you’re dealing with for yourself or your parents, for your children, I’m happy to truly have a deep conversation. No charge. Just spreading, spreading good information.
I just want to help people get good information so they can make the decision that’s right for them without judgment.
John Corcoran: 42:22
Excellent. Matt, thanks so much for your time.
Matt Zemon: 42:24
John. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Outro: 42:28
Thanks for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast. We’ll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.