John Corcoran: 13:51
And there are others. You have competitors out there. There are other companies out there that are seeking to be the platform to help get found in AI. What did you think about it? Like how did you think, well, how do we just do?
How can we do something that’s different or better?
Jason Patel: 14:04
Yeah, I mean, the big thing is that fundamentally, business is a long term battle. It’s a 7 to 10, maybe 7 to 12 year horizon. We can say ten as a nice whole number. And so I, I don’t think about the competition and existentially insofar as, oh man, they did this. So I should be worried.
You know, Jeff Bezos has a really good story where I forgot the company, but then I forgot the magazine. But the magazine had a really, like front page article about amazon.com because it was a famous one. Yeah, yeah. Barnes and Noble, I believe, was investing in books and people were saying Amazon’s going to get killed. Yeah, Jeff Bezos calls his team.
Everyone’s worried. And he said, listen, worrying about our competitors isn’t going to put money in our pockets. We just have to build what we build and then build it really well, and then we’ll see if we win, right? Because you just have to focus on the process, as Nick Saban says. And then, you know, go on to, you know, winning the market if things work out.
So that’s how I think about the competition.
John Corcoran: 15:04
Yeah.
Jason Patel: 15:05
That said a lot of our competition they’re just dashboards. You know they make the customer give them prompts to track and that’s it. We are the orchestration platform. So our AI learns about your business from the get go. And then it does all the work for you with our AI agents.
So we’re not just monitoring but we monitor. We tell you what to do to get seen on ChatGPT. And then our AI agents do all the work for you after learning about your business. So we view AI as a partner, as a copilot, as someone, as something that should learn more about the context of your business so that you get really great outputs from it. And so our AI learns about you.
It learns about you on a week over week basis. It learns about you the more you use it. And that’s how we view our AI systems compared to, you know, what our competitors do.
John Corcoran: 15:50
Got it, got it. And you know, there are big companies like Ahrefs, Semrush, which just got sold for multi-billion dollars that are rapidly pivoting into these areas and putting money into it. Do you worry about that? Well, probably not after what you just said. But, you know, there’s got to be a part of you that worries about these deep pockets that I’m competing with here.
Jason Patel: 16:12
I have a great deal of respect for Ahrefs, Semrush and my competitors.
John Corcoran: 16:16
You probably used them for years, I imagine.
Jason Patel: 16:18
I used to build and sell my first company. I have a love for it. I like Tim Solo.
John Corcoran: 16:23
It’s a great platform.
Jason Patel: 16:24
Yeah, platform and Semrush. I use Semrush too. And Semrus is the leader of space. Semrush is the the OG of the SEM. You know, the Semrush.
I don’t know the guys who founded it. But then there’s Rand Fishkin at SEO. Yeah, or the original gangsters of the mad respect for them. Right? Ultimately, AI is one of these things where you have to bake it in from the ground up.
and I don’t think you need a massive company to. I don’t think you need a massive team from the get go to build a really iconic company. So I think you can have a 50% or 100 person company that does $1 billion in revenue or $1 billion in valuation.
John Corcoran: 17:06
Well, so Sam Altman saying there’s going to be a one person company, $1 billion maybe.
Jason Patel: 17:10
In the future.
John Corcoran: 17:10
But he’s saying it. Yeah, man.
Jason Patel: 17:13
So my point here is that I think a lot of companies in this space are hiring too quickly, or they’re already too big and they’re too cumbersome. They’re too unwieldy to really adapt to the AI age and the ones that do like, like Ahrefs, which will adapt because they’re a phenomenal company that’s good for us. They’re validating the market. Number one. Number two, they have a different customer.
And then number three, you know, the market for AI, SEO is going to be ten x what it was for SEO. SEO generally speaking for B2B SaaS is a $90 billion industry. I think it’s going to be ten-x that because everyone is going to need to be on ChatGPT. If someone needs the best Malbec for date night with my wife near it, you know, to buy near me, you’re going to want to go to a local liquor store that shows up on ChatGPT. If you are a college student, you want to show up.
If you’re a global brand, you want to show up. The bottom line is that AI search is customized according to what the user is typing in. And so that means every business needs to be in front of their customers. You’re no longer fighting for the ten blue links. You’re fighting for mindshare for your ideal customer profile.
And if you’re not there, you’re going to be irrelevant. Why would you want to be irrelevant for the AI age? It makes no sense. It’s like I’m a history dork. So this is where my mind goes.
But it’s like being, you know, it’s like being a being, you know, one of the Spain or or or Britain or France or, you know, trying to to, to to take land in the New World and then completely ignoring the Atlantic Ocean, you’re ignoring complete white space for your business. If you’re ignoring ASC or ignoring AI in general, it’s just malpractice if you’re ignoring it.
John Corcoran: 18:59
Right, right. I do want to ask you about there are SEO experts out there who say, look, Google’s still huge. Most of the traffic is going to Google and people shouldn’t worry about AI. It’ll be a few years if ever. Like, what do you say to people like that as far as a business focusing on overindexing, on focusing on AI versus, you know, Google, which is still by far the market leader.
Jason Patel: 19:29
Google is going to be AI. So, for example, if you look at the ten blue links on top of the ten blue links, you’ll see that there’s a summary there, Google AI overview. That is almost the same thing as a ChatGPT experience. Yeah, my prediction is that Google is just going to go straight up into the AI mode, which is when someone types in an answer, they get some blue links, but they’re just going to be an answer there. So ultimately, Google is moving toward a ChatGPT experience.
ChatGPT is going to go more toward the Google AI experience. It’ll all be subsumed into the same thing, which is the new SEO search Everywhere optimization, or AI, SEO, or generative engine optimization or answer engine optimization. The point is, that no one is going to be reading anything anymore, unfortunately. And so people want the answer given to them there. And therefore it’s up to you as a business to be seen, cited and selected by the AI.
So yeah, Google has, you know what, 97 plus or above some massive, massive 99% of the market share. That’s great. They’re going to be in AI mode, and they’re going to have an AI chat service. They already do. But they’re going to embrace that more because that’s where the consumer and the buyer experience is going.
Yeah. ChatGPT has the same thing right now. The reason why I like people to focus on ChatGPT is, by and large, if you’re able to optimize for one, you’ll be able to build the operation. Optimize for Gemini and Google. The other thing with ChatGPT is that a lot of people use it in terms of mindshare.
People don’t say, oh, let me Gemini it. They say, let me ChatGPT the kids say, oh, did you write this with ChatGPT? Or if you’re looking for a question for something medical, you ChatGPT, right.
John Corcoran: 21:07
Just like googling it before.
Jason Patel: 21:08
Yeah, yeah, it has that mindshare, that pop culture stuff. I think Sam Altman’s a great CEO as well. I mean, he’s very ambitious and he’s got a big vision. And so my, my, my answer to those people who are saying that Google and ChatGPT are different is I think it’s a misunderstanding. Everyone is going toward the chat interface to get their findings, and that means you’re just going to be optimizing for the chat interface.
You’re no longer optimizing for ten blue links.
John Corcoran: 21:33
Yeah. I’m curious, you mentioned earlier that some of these other competitors are building two big teams. So I’m curious about your decisions around building this company. And in particular you have a degree in political communication, you know, know. So you’re a non-tech founder?
I’m curious, like what some of the challenges have been for you in building really a tech platform as a non-tech founder?
Jason Patel: 21:55
Yeah, I would say that the only challenge has been like snobbery from some venture capitalists, really, who you know, that I didn’t go to Stanford and I didn’t go to Harvard or Georgia Tech or something like that. It does suck, right? It does suck, but there’s nothing I can do.
John Corcoran: 22:11
GW is a great school and you sold a company. Jeez.
Jason Patel: 22:15
You know, I think that type of elitism and snobbery is never going to go away.
John Corcoran: 22:20
Yeah.
Jason Patel: 22:21
It is what it is. It is something that is well known in the VC space. It is what it is.
John Corcoran: 22:25
Yeah.
Jason Patel: 22:26
I will say though, is that because I’m a non-technical founder and I do have a technical founder, my co-founder, who is technical, he doesn’t do any interviews. He just wants the code which I love. He you know, what I will say is I’m very good at relating to people and building my outside of tech skills. I love my customers. I love talking to them.
We’re a very customer-driven company, which is why we are winning market share, which is why we’re very profitable, which is why our customers love us and they tell their friends about us. I’m also good at selling. I’m good at getting on camera and speaking and evangelizing. What we do on my YouTube channel for Open Forge has 45,000 subscribers as of this recording. That’s more than our venture backed competitors.
John Corcoran: 23:07
So has that grown? Have you gotten 45,000 subscribers in just since you started the company like six months ago, or did you pivot that YouTube channel four months ago?
Jason Patel: 23:17
Yeah, yeah. I mean.
John Corcoran: 23:18
You had a different YouTube channel. Jason Patel’s legendary leader, that was a different one.
Jason Patel: 23:22
Different one. Yeah.
John Corcoran: 23:23
Wow. So 45,000 subscribers on your YouTube channel in four months. I mean, that in itself is remarkable. A lot of people would kill for that.
Jason Patel: 23:30
Yeah, I appreciate that. And so my point is that I force myself to embrace different aspects of building a technology company. There’s other things besides coding. You need distribution to build a really good company. In fact, I would say it’s more important to have killer distribution and a good product than it is to have a killer product with just good distribution.
You know, you want to have distribution first. And so, you know, being someone who can manage people, recruit people, build great marketing, build great sales systems. You know, I’m very proud of my experience there. And, you know, it’s fun. I didn’t go to Stanford.
It is what it is. I’m very proud of my experience and my competitors will know about my experience and how hard charging we are soon enough.
John Corcoran: 24:15
And by the way, shout out to Nicole Donnelly, who you were mentioning, speaking and raving clients. And she is a customer of yours who we connected with. She’s an AI expert and absolutely raving about you. So I want to thank her. But also so you mentioned raising VC money, which I imagine you didn’t do with the last company.
You didn’t mention it. What’s that been like as a founder, having to build the plane and also rebuild the engine or whatever metaphor you want to use? What’s it been like raising money?
Jason Patel: 24:44
Yeah. I mean, we have angels on our cap table who are very happy with the company’s progress. And we have a lot of interested VCs and firms that are reaching out to us now that we have a lot of traction. You know, like I said, we’re very profitable, but we want to build something big. So we’re happy to forgo profit in the short term if it means taking market share and being the leading brand for the future.
Our ultimate goal with our company here is to help grow the productivity of American companies, and help American companies get seen by ChatGPT. That means more revenue and more customers. For fellow Americans, that means an increased GDP for America, and that means good things for everybody. If that GDP goes to the right people. And so, you know, we have a big patriotic vision here.
And you know that that means that we’re going to have to take on additional money as we’re expanding right now, we have not as of this recording, we have not raised venture VC money. We’re going to run a process. We have a lot of interested people. We’re focused on getting as close to our customer as possible, mastering that experience, differentiating from our customers and then de-risking the company. Once we have a solid baseline, you know we’re going to get more people reaching out to us, number one, but we’re going to be a brand that can stand on its own without needing outside money.
And if we’re able to do that, we’ll be able to build leverage that can move our industry into the direction we want to go in.
John Corcoran: 26:04
I’m curious, you know, one of the biggest risks as a founder is that you are de-risking, but that there could be any one thing that changes that affects your platform or your business or something like that. When I was on this panel, I organized a panel of SEO experts, and this is where Nicole was talking about Open Forge, and someone else pointed out that Google, in its early days, released a lot more data. And they said that ChatGPT has been doing the same thing and that Open Forge relies on some of that data. Is there a part of you that worries about first, you can clarify what if that’s true or not? But secondly, do you worry that at some point they may cut that off or they might start charging for it and it’ll affect your platform.
Jason Patel: 26:50
No, we’re not worried about it. One, because of the financial incentives for OpenAI and for Google and for whoever it is. So I’ll give you a real life. I’ll give you a real-life answer here. For example, when Google Analytics came out, it actually increased the size, the market cap of the entire SEO market.
Traditional SEO market because people realized, wow, we’re getting so many customers from Google, I gotta optimize for this and build more. The same thing will happen with OpenAI because you want people like us or you want, you know, purveyors and vendors within the system to talk about you and to optimize more people for the ChatGPT experience, because that will lead to a greater cultivation of the market and that will lead to a greater market cap. And so when you expand the data and you provide value first, it’s capitalism at its finest. You provide value first. More people use you.
they talk about you, and then it increases your market cap. And so no, we’re not worried about open AI. You know, siphoning off their data or blocking it in any way. Of course, you know, we play ball with their system. We do everything above board.
We use, you know, API and the data that they have. But they want us to talk about it. Open AI wants partners in the ecosystem telling people to get on ChatGPT and then telling people to buy from ChatGPT and use their shopping experience because it’s good for everybody. You know, it’s the thing that works. Of course, I mean, right, anytime you build a platform on someone else’s data or on another company’s success, you know, we are hoping or we are hoping and we anticipate ChatGPT in Gemini will take over the entire customer experience for a lot of online shoppers.
But I think that’s a pretty safe bet. I think if we look at the world 3 to 5 years from now, that’s going to be true. And so sure, there’s always anxiety there, but it would not be fun and it would not be exciting. It would not be entrepreneurship if there wasn’t a little uncertainty.
John Corcoran: 28:45
You mentioned Amazon earlier, and Amazon has had an interesting relationship with the outside companies that depend on Amazon. I mean, I have known people that have built multi, like ten, 20, $30 million companies that can’t get through to an Amazon rep because Amazon is so big that they haven’t invested in that and it’s not meaningful to them. And so it’s interesting for some of these companies like it’s scary really to be so dependent. What has it been like for you building a company that depends on this much larger company? OpenAI I think is a $1 billion company, a $1 trillion company or something.
You know, it’s on its way anyways. Do you feel that they know who you are? Do you have lines of communication inside of them, or is that something that since it’s so early days, they’re still building those types of infrastructure out?
Jason Patel: 29:35
No, no, they have no idea who we are and I don’t. I don’t expect them to. We’re totally, you know, little minnows compared to the giant orca that is at his OpenAI. I don’t get my feelings hurt over that. That’s just that’s just business. I think that the ideal you know, the difference here with Amazon, the OpenAI comparison ultimately is that we’re not selling physical goods.
There’s no fulfillment or warehouses or anything else necessary. And so there’s nothing that can really knock us off from us, right? I mean, we’re just expanding on the data on their platform and then helping people get on ChatGPT. But yeah, the risk is always there when you are, you know, within someone else’s ecosystem. You are in many ways, you know, hoping that they succeed because that will increase the market cap for everybody.
But of course, you know, there is no communication between OpenAI and us, and it’s not in their interest. Why would they? We’re small potatoes. Yeah. You know, ultimately compared to them.
And that’s completely okay. You know, we’re going to build a big company here and we’re going to increase the market cap for OpenAI. It’s going to be worth it for them. It’s going to be worth it for us. And you know, our buyers, our customers and the American consumer are going to win.
John Corcoran: 30:42
A lot of AI experts are speculating about ChatGPT and the others putting ads directly in your search results in ChatGPT. Are you preparing for that? What are your thoughts on that?
Jason Patel: 30:53
Yeah. No, I think it’s going to happen. They’re going to have to find a way to monetize if they’ve already had a, you know, massive valuation that they have plus a lot of burn. They got to bring in cash. I think it makes sense to put in ads, at least in a tasteful way.
In order to generate revenue. So I think that’s completely fine. Yeah, we’re preparing for it. You know, we have our own data pipeline setup. It’s part of what makes our company special to make sure that when the ads experience does come, we can set our customers up correctly.
I think ads are going to happen. ChatGPT needs to monetize. There’s plenty of white space for ads. If they could do it in a tasteful way that matches the customer intent of someone who is looking for a particular product. I think it’s a win for all parties.
John Corcoran: 31:34
Yeah. It’s interesting. There was a story that came out within the last week or so that said that there was some public opinion survey and the reputation of AI, at least amongst workers, was really low, which is which is shocking to me because I, like you, kind of hang out in entrepreneurial circles and maybe it’s by choice. But I’ve connected with a lot of entrepreneurs who are excited about AI and its potential and some things that it can do, and I personally am excited. What are your thoughts on that?
Because obviously, if people we’ve seen this happen historically, where there are times that something comes out, some disruptive technology and then the pendulum swings the other way and, you know, it could get regulated, who knows? So what are your thoughts on that?
Jason Patel: 32:17
Yeah, I think AI represents a massive opportunity for America to set itself out, to set itself, you know, way above our international, the rivals or the powers there are. I want us to beat China. I want us to beat India. I want us to beat them handily. And I think AI has the power to do that for us.
With that said, I think for the average American worker, the average American consumer, it is scary and I don’t blame them. Why? Well, AI can automate a lot of what, you know, not just blue collar work, but white collar work as well. It’s going to happen to everybody. And so what we have to do is the government has to find a way to be active in pairing people who’ve been displaced by AI and pairing them with new opportunities, retraining them.
But also, you know, in a lot of ways, certain jobs are automated out giving those people a chance, a fighting chance to work and find other opportunities. I think that’s really important. And so I think AI will ultimately really benefit the world and our country within the next 10 to 15 years. But I think until then, it’s going to be a lot of turmoil. We’re looking at a job market that is not growing right now, and GDP is still growing.
Companies are still making more money than ever. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that it’s happening alongside the rise of AI. Companies are realizing they can shorten a lot of workflows without human labor. And that’s a scary thing for a lot of people. And a lot of people are going to lose their way of life.
And I think it’s important for founders, entrepreneurs in the AI space to be extremely empathetic to those people, because it’s not as easy as saying get a job. It’s if those jobs in your space are getting automated out, you’re losing opportunity, and then you lose the fundamental promise of America and you lose the fundamental promise of economic opportunity. I think it’s bad for all parties that the American people will lose faith in their government. They’ll lose faith in capitalism. They’ll lose faith in their institutions even more so than they already have.
And that’s a loss for everybody. And that leads to the nihilism that leads to a whole bunch of stuff that we’re seeing happening in the country right now with some, you know, recent people getting elected. It’s bad news for everybody. And, you know, we have to make sure that people are people. You know, it’s a frightening time.
Anything that messes with the food on your table and the money in your pocket is scary and I totally get it.
John Corcoran: 34:40
I can see the passion that you have for this. This really harkens back to your roots and what you started out doing with your transition and helping, you know, young kids and things like that. You know, have you thought about how I see platforms like yours, which obviously you’re at a really early stage, but eventually they build like a certification program and eventually they get experts who come in and get certified. And then eventually they have an ecosystem of thousands of people who are working as a certified expert on that platform. And then, you know, then if you even catapult that out even further, they’re serving so many other companies to help them to get found online when they weren’t getting found online before getting found in AI.
I imagine that’s something that would be in your future.
Jason Patel: 35:23
Yeah, we ultimately want to not simply, you know, take advantage of a large market and, and be somewhat be a big player in, in a large ocean. But we want to help increase the size of the market. I think that’s our patriotic capitalist duty in that you’re not just trying to make money, but you want to help others make money, increase the market cap because then everyone wins. It gives you as a company more leeway to build new things and take big swings and experiment. But then it gives, you know, the other guys like new entrepreneurs, a way to make more money and then increase the GDP of the internet.
And everyone can win by doing that. Yes. So the certificate program building champions, I think that’s the right way to go about doing things. If you start from a community-led, you know, bottom up approach where you can get the people who are your champions involved within the growth of your business. I think it’s a win-win for everybody, and that’s the type of marketing I love.
John Corcoran: 36:24
I want to run out of time. So I want to wrap up with our last question, which is my gratitude question. But before I get to that, I want to ask you one last question. I want to give you the space here to make a pitch for two things, and I can separate these out. So it’s not too complicated.
But number one is why should founders who are listening to this be paying close attention to ChatGPT getting found on ChatGPT, especially now as we record this at the end of 2025, beginning of 2026, when it still represents such a small portion of the search market. And then I’ll have a follow up after that.
Jason Patel: 37:02
Imagine it’s the year 2005. You go back in time and someone comes up to you and says, Google is doing this thing called SEO is your chance to get on top of it. And if you’re able to do this, your company will make millions of dollars because there’s so much opportunity and so much white space, and the early movers are going to win big. They’re going to win an outsized amount of market share if they do it right. Wouldn’t you want to be on that opportunity?
Why would you pass that opportunity up? AI is the future. You’re not simply fighting for new business. You’re fighting irrelevance. You need to get onto the AI data set so people, customers of the future and customers now think about you, they know about you.
And when it’s time to make a purchase, they search ChatGPT for you. So think about it. You take a time machine, you go back in time. If you could hop on the Google wave, wouldn’t you do it? Well, that’s what’s happening right now.
John Corcoran: 37:55
Well done sir. And then why should they use your platform?
Jason Patel: 38:00
We have a customer first approach to our company. We are supported by happy customers, not venture capitalists. It’s not hype that sustains our company. It’s customer success that sustains our company. Our AI doesn’t simply build things for you.
It learns about your business. So it’s a stakeholder in your success and then it does the work for you. So our AI will learn about your business to help you generate revenue and help you save time. And those two things are the most important things that you should focus on when you’re building a business, getting that top line and bottom line up, but also making sure that you can free yourself from the things that really matter in life.
John Corcoran: 38:38
Nice. All right, my final question. I’m a big fan of gratitude, especially expressing giving my guests a little bit of space here to thank anyone who helped them in their journey, in their entrepreneurial career. Who would you want to thank? Who would you want to shout out?
Jason Patel: 38:54
Yeah, you know, my parents were immigrants. You know, they taught me all about the greatness of this country and being very thankful to be here. I think that’s a cliche though, right? A lot, a lot of people would think of their parents. I’ll, I’ll go a little bit in a different direction.
I would say my role model in a lot of ways. My wife, back when she was my girlfriend, I was struggling a lot in my first, my first company. And I told her, if you do, you hold any resentment toward me for being an entrepreneur. If you know a lot of your friends, boyfriends and husbands are getting their MBAs or becoming doctors, and here you are dating at the time, just a loser ass entrepreneur who just couldn’t get his company off the ground. And she said no, she’s proud of me for chasing my dreams.
And the only thing is she. She’d hold against me if I didn’t try hard enough to not only help the business, but also help myself because I was going through a tough mental time. You know, things are going well and they’ve succeeded. But she believed in me from day one, and I could not have done it without her belief in me, her kindness toward me, and the grace that she showed me.
John Corcoran: 39:55
Jason, this has been great. Where can people go to learn more about you and learn more about Open Forge AI?
Jason Patel: 40:01
Yeah, open forge AI. Open AI. Do you guys have any questions about it? Just contact me at Jason at Open 4G. Feel free to visit me on LinkedIn. Jason Patel. Looking forward to connecting with everybody.
John Corcoran: 40:18
Awesome. Jason, thanks so much.
Jason Patel: 40:20
Thank you for having me.
Outro: 40:23
Thanks for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast. We’ll see you again next time, and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.