John Corcoran 12:22
That’s requiring a big shift in, in many businesses, an openness amongst the leaders to allow the team to express those sorts of things, right.
Diana Chapman 12:34
Yeah. And like, you know, I work with a lot of startups. And they’re often in grief, because they had these visions of where they were going to be one year, two year, three years out. And it’s often not the way they thought, and but they haven’t, they’re not letting themselves grieve. And so they get tired suppressing all that grief, and my experiences, teams who don’t grieve, and let go of what was can’t really fully embrace what’s here now. So I think I spent a lot of time now incorporating grief into meetings like, Hey, can we all just feel that? The darn, if we didn’t make the numbers we thought we would this time around. And then candor, you know, a lot of us don’t have workplaces that are candid. So we’re withholding a lot from one another. And that withholding exists exhausting. People have no idea how much withholding thoughts and feelings burns us out.
John Corcoran 13:34
So let me speak for a listener’s listening, you’re thinking, Okay, I want to encourage greater candor within my organization. What should they do?
Diana Chapman 13:45
Well, we say in order we put these commitments in order, and these practices in order, so we say in order to have candor, that’s going to be friendly, everybody’s got to stop blaming. So you gotta go handle number one, they’re all related. Yeah, everybody’s got to stop. But everybody’s got to let go of being righteous. And everybody’s got to be willing to feel their feelings and let other people have their feelings, because one of the reasons why we don’t have candor is I don’t want to upset you. And the reason why I usually don’t want to upset you, it’s because I don’t know how to be with your feelings, because I don’t know how to fully be with mine. But if I can let go of blame righteousness and have you and I both be able to feel our feelings, we’re going to have a much more candid conversation that’s also thoughtful and kind, but also provides challenge when needed to be able to have the honest conversations that are required to permanently solve solution permanently solve issues that we’re having. So those are some of the just the beginning skill sets, I start to work with teams on and then that helps them start to eliminate gossip. And then also, how do we make sure we’re all making really clean agreements about who’s going to do what by when, because so much drama in the workplace happens because of fuzzy agreements or they’re made agreements In the first place are broken means so many broken agreements happening in the workplace.
John Corcoran 15:04
So tell me like a story or giving an example of a client that you’ve worked with where you seen these sorts of changes take place, probably not overnight took a little while to do and the types of results you’ve seen from them after they got these results, they got these, you know, greater consciousness for lack of a better word. Yeah.
Diana Chapman 15:26
Well, one of the things that we see is, people project onto each other a lot. So you are doing it wrong over there, and I have an aversion to you. And that’s because you represent something in myself that I don’t own. I’m not like that. Or I know, I’m like that, but I don’t accept that about me. And so I exit out in me, and therefore have to exit out in you. So one of the things and that creates the distance as team members, and it creates, you know, judgments and gossip, etc. So one of the things that we do is we have a model called the clearing model, in which you really take responsibility for how you’re creating disconnection between you and another because of this unknown part. And there’s a model people walk through to then go back and recognize, oh, this is about me, not about you the way I’m creating disconnection. So we’ve had teams who realized that they were all projecting on top of each other and having lots of shouldn’t shouldn’t against each other. So we introduced this clearing model, we first had them first recognize stop blaming and let go of being right. But they would then start to use this model and own their projections on to each other, we call eight, the projection. And lo and behold, the team that was, I can think of one company in particular, the team was having a lot of dissonance amongst the leadership team. And we got that clearing model out after they had had some training first, and started practicing. And they got significantly closer to one another, their dramas ended because they stopped making each other wrong, they stopped shooting on each other, they got better at listening and co creating decisions together and said like this, the intimacy of the team radically increased and their effectiveness to collaborate did so as well. So that’s one example of
John Corcoran 17:29
that one idea of CO creating decisions has got to be that one piece has got to be jarring for companies that have existed for a long time with a top down leadership model where the leaders make the decisions, and then they’re gonna shift to making decisions with other members is not
Diana Chapman 17:47
asked me that question, again,
John Corcoran 17:48
that piece about co-creating decisions. Yeah, ages from, you know, most, many businesses, you know, have a kind of a top down model where the ownership or the executives make the decisions. And then to shift from that it’s got to be a radical change for many of them.
Diana Chapman 18:04
It can be and I do think more and more organizations are recognizing there’s so much wisdom in the teams on all levels, and that there’s a lot of now bottom up decision making happening, where people on the ground have a lot more experience of what’s actually occurring and can offer advice on how to, you know, make decisions that affect the whole thing. And we’re really excited about teaching teams now about decision rights. Because, you know, what is the decision? And what is the decision, right? Is it going to be the leader decides, without input the leader decides with input? Is there going to be a committee or a group that decides, with or without input? Is it a consensus? Is it the majority? Is it? What is the decision, right? And what are all the options that are available? And when are some of those options? You know, what are the circumstances in which some of those choices would be better than others? So that’s a very popular topic that we find most teams don’t have very much knowledge at all around his decision rights.
John Corcoran 19:07
Yeah, absolutely. That sounds like there needs to be, it needs to be on every wall, it needs to be clear, because you know, oftentimes, I think in workplaces, you have that kind of confusion.
Diana Chapman 19:17
Right? And so now we say, hey, a great meeting goes, Hey, is there a decision that needs to be made at this meeting? If so, great. What is the decision? Right? Let’s all get clear about that. And then by what time in this meeting, do we want to pause and make sure that we get the decision done? And then make sure we have time at the end to clarify who will do what by when to make sure that that decision gets implemented? And so we’re working with teams now. How do you have a conscious meeting, so that these things happen? It makes those meetings so much more effective and keeps us from having the meetings after the meetings? Right,
John Corcoran 19:48
right. I can picture you coming in, in and introducing this concept to a team meeting where there’s like a leader has been ruled with an iron fist and just How, how just a disorienting that could be for a leader that has that happened with you, where you’ve, you’ve come in and, you know, it’s, it’s been kind of jarring for them to make that kind of shift or to even talk about the idea of, of who makes what decision when.
Diana Chapman 20:19
Yeah, you know, probably honestly, the people who are attracted to our work are often a little more curious. And they’re not necessarily that style. However, occasionally, I’ve been hired by a board of directors to come in and work with the CEO like that. Now, they weren’t necessarily excited about
John Corcoran 20:36
kind of being put in place. Yeah, that’s right. And so I’ve
Diana Chapman 20:39
come in, and I’ve helped and I, I first thought ask them as a leader, what are you complaining about? Like, what do you not like? And oftentimes those types of leaders say, I get no support with ideation from my team. And I say, why do you think that is? And then I have them teach me the course. I want to have a team in which no one’s giving me ideas, no one’s speaking up to give their opinion. What should I do? If I follow your course on how you’ve created that result? Yeah. And the good news is, everybody can figure that out. They’re like, well, I guess I kind of come to them with my own opinions. Don’t really add it. And then they realize, Oh, I’m creating the thing I’m complaining about. And so I go, would you like to change that? Yeah, I would, okay, great. What are you going to need to do, and then they start waking up to the patterns, and then get more open and curious. And then those decision rights often open up quite a bit
John Corcoran 21:37
interesting. You know, we’re recording this in July of 2021, we’ve had a year, 15 16 months or something of the pandemic, creating a lot of drama, and a lot of different ways and a lot of people’s different lives. Talk a little bit about what you’ve seen with your companies that you’ve worked with the results of the pandemic, and what you think that impact is going to be for the next 612 24 months going forward?
Diana Chapman 22:08
Well, we have a very radical concept that says, whenever there’s a situation going on, there’s facts. And there are stories. So facts are that we have a pandemic. Well, that might be a story, actually. Facts are people have symptoms. Some people have symptoms and facts, our government is asking people to stay home. And then we have a bunch of stories that we make up about that. And it’s the stories that upset us, not the facts. If you go look, it’s your interpretations of facts. And so one of the things that we’ve been working with, with our clients during the pandemic is questioning their stories that that caused them upset, we should be working in person instead of virtually. And as soon as I believe that and I want to be right, I’m going to suffer. So I’m going to be irritated or upset. So we help them learn to question their beliefs that help them come back and relax. And so our clients actually, for the most part, were able to have a lot less suffering during this time, when they were able to locate their stories and recognize they’re just interpretations. And they’re not necessarily the truth with a capital T.
John Corcoran 23:26
You know, an example, perhaps of that, that I’m hearing a lot right now is it’s really hard to hire good people. I keep on hearing that over and over again, we personally have not experienced that. I feel like we’ve been able to find good people. And so I wonder why I keep hearing that story over and over again.
Diana Chapman 23:44
Well, my clients, for the most part, aren’t having that issue. And I think part of it is because they’re creating cultures that people want to work in. And I do think, you know, this new generation of the workforce coming in, they want a quality lifestyle, they want to then I don’t think they’re going to follow in their parents footsteps of you know, working crazy hours, not being able to manage their personal lives as well, these these guys want it different. And they’re going to stand for it. And they don’t want drama in the workplace. And so I find that we’re actually getting more people knocking on our door. Because they I think that they’re starting to recognize it’s not just about they can’t just throw money at people anymore. They have to promise a culture that people are going to want to work in. And so now there’s there’s interest in eliminating drama to get the best people in the door.
John Corcoran 24:43
Yeah, yeah, I think that’s great. I want to step back and talk about the business for a second. So you know, you’d facilitate, you’d done one on one work, you did coaching and training, and at some point you decided about 10 years ago to form the Conscious Leadership Group. So why did you decide to do that and talk a little bit about, you know what that business has, what it was then and what it’s become?
Diana Chapman 25:09
Yeah, so I was on my own as an individual consultant, and so was my business partner Jim Detmer, who lives in Chicago. And we were working together sometimes. And we were starting to create some events. And it turned out that our clients actually said, we really think that you would be better to come together, bring your gifts together, and we think something bigger could happen. And the truth was, both of us were very nervous about that, because we were a little tied to our identities, and our own individual, you know, check it out. But we were willing to surrender to a bigger cause of really supporting the movement of conscious leadership. So we put this organization together, and have been hiring and training consultants, many of whom were our former clients, and brought them in and now, you know, are reaching a really broad audience in all different industries across the globe. And, but that was the design really, we both felt called to support this movement and believe, with the support of our clients, that we would be better to do it together.
John Corcoran 26:17
And you now have, you have coaching and consulting, you have trainings, you have events, you have forums, talk a little bit about what you offer through the company now,
Diana Chapman 26:27
Yeah, we offer a wide variety of services to people. And really, right now we’re excited to say to most folks, hey, come in and do some one on one coaching with us. See, if you like the models, try it out, let’s really practice it and make it very practical for you to incorporate into your life, see what happens. If you like it, then we have a bunch of other options for how you can dive deeper, and both for your own self and then also to have us come in and support you first with your leadership team and then more broadly into your whole organization. And so and we also have forums for all different kinds of leaders who want to come in and dive in and get edgy and get into some really get with a group of other leaders and, and have very vulnerable conversations where they deeply nurture each other, but also challenge each other and where they won’t tolerate people coming forward over and over again, with the same issues, because they’ll say you actually aren’t yet willing to shift that. So let’s find some other topics to discuss.
John Corcoran 27:31
Yeah. And are those all just in the Bay Area? Are there forums outside of the Bay Area forums
Diana Chapman 27:36
in New York, DC, Chicago Bay Area, we’re getting ready to start one down in LA. And as interest is growing in different cities, we’re keeping waiting lists, and we’re opening them up.
John Corcoran 27:48
Great, very cool. I want to ask you a question I asked every interview. So I’m a big fan of gratitude. So if you look around at your peers and contemporaries, however you want to define that, who would you acknowledge? Who do you respect and admire that’s doing really good work?
Diana Chapman 28:07
Well, I would say that first and foremost, Gay and Kathlyn Hendricks of the Hendricks Institute are mentors to me, who really introduced me to the core models that have helped and so much suffering in my life. And now as I’ve shared those more broadly, with so many others, I’m very grateful to them. And particularly, I’m grateful to the fact that they bring so much play, one of the things I do is I also want to bring a lot of play into the workplace, in play into our lives, because I think humans, and all mammals, we now know, work best and learn best through play so grateful to them. And I’m really grateful to the leaders who I’m working with who are bringing this into their companies. And, you know, one who’s been probably most devoted these days is Dustin Moskovitz, who’s the co-founder at Asana, he and Justin Rosenstein, originally brought me in when they were just sporty people. And we’ve been onboarding 1000s of 1000 plus employees into our work, and I really appreciate the culture they’re creating there. That honors so many of the principles that I’m standing for, which is how do we learn to collaborate in a state of trust and eliminate as much drama as we can?
John Corcoran 29:22
It makes sense that a company like Asana, which we use, which is all about better collaboration at work would take you know, would be interested in that as well.
Diana Chapman 29:32
Yeah, I really appreciate that. They’re they decided to make their own culture a product in a way in that they’re role modeling for a lot of others. What does this look like?
John Corcoran 29:41
Yeah, yeah. Very cool, Diana. It’s been a pleasure. Where can people go to learn more about you and the work that you do?
Diana Chapman 29:48
Yeah, if you want to learn more about us go to conscious.is. conscious.ai and we have one of the things we’re really proud of is that we have open sourced All of our content. And so we have a big library on the resource page. You can learn so much about our work just right there. And feel free to share it broadly with those around you. So that’s a great place to start.
John Corcoran 30:12
Awesome, Diana, thank you so much. You’re welcome.
Outro 30:16
Thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast with John Corcoran. Find out more at smartbusinessrevolution.com and while you’re there, sign up for our email list and join the revolution. And be listening for the next episode of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast.