John Corcoran 11:18
Launch. Yeah, yeah. Right.
Andrew Eklund 11:19
And it is just right, it is laid out all right now. Yeah. That’s how we’re preparing ourselves. I’m preparing my staff not to be afraid, you know, all these sorts of like, Let’s lean in. Let’s be fearless. This is just now our turn. You know, we’ve been displacing people for 25 years, for 30 years, right? You’ve been displacing traditional advertising. We’ve been displacing television, all this. Now. It’s our turn. It’s happening to us. And so nobody was spared.
John Corcoran 11:46
Did you realize that right away? When did that realization come for you? For me, it was, I think, December, what it was a year and a half ago, December when ChatGPT came out. And I played around with it, and was like, Oh, my gosh, this is it. And I played with previous text based AI as before, but I always felt like it wasn’t there yet.
Andrew Eklund 12:07
You know, that was it right now, I was at an event last night. And a good friend of mine and a person I have collaborated with for years here in the Twin Cities named Dan male, and he and his business partner, Scott have just this, you know, they’re serial entrepreneurs, and they have a technology called Lucy. And we’ve been working with Lucy for a long time. And I heard him speak last night. And he was really funny. He was saying, those of us who have been involved in AI for so long are wondering, Why does everybody think it was invented a year ago? Right?
And you know, his answer was that open AI essentially launched out to the public and it went to 100 million users within like, an hour. Yeah, crazy. Yeah. And that’s what it was right now. Everybody knew what it was. It wasn’t, you know, companies like Lucy having to go out pitch AI was just all of a sudden there. And, you know, that was really the catalyst. And so for me just, you know, we’ve been involved in machine learning, you know, a precursor is the same as a hey, you know, we don’t exactly right.
John Corcoran 13:18
But, and there’s parallels to the development of the internet because the internet captured the public’s imagination, maybe starting in 9596, it started getting more front page news. But the internet had been developed, I think, in the 78’s, or something like that. DARPA way back even before then, yeah, exactly.
Andrew Eklund 13:35
Yeah. And and you know, and the web was, you know, around since 93. It just didn’t have a browser, or 1992. Sorry. And then the browser, you know, I didn’t have an answer. And so Gopher, and all this kind of stuff, which by the way, has Minnesota roots, which is why it’s called a gopher. Yeah. But yeah, so that’s what happens, like the internet took five to 10 years to take to really, you know, and we just flipped traditional budgets, like two years ago.
John Corcoran 14:05
To digital to digital, in part because of the pandemic, of course, yeah.
Andrew Eklund 14:10
The pandemic and just the fact that if you look at what people do, what do humans do every day? It’s just the data that says, This is where they are?
John Corcoran 14:20
That’s all prior to that. Companies were spending the majority of their money, not on digital advertising, but on traditional media, is what you’re saying? Correct? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. taking you back still to the 90s. You said there were four people, you were four people for the first few years. Was there a point where you realize you’re starting to gain traction?
Andrew Eklund 14:43
Yeah, I think that what happened was a bunch of different things when we were able to launch a web editor, so that anybody who’s non technical could start to update their websites.
John Corcoran 14:59
And, this is revolutionary because WordPress started to come around I think 2003, so many years later, and really didn’t, you know, take off for a number of years after that?
Andrew Eklund 15:11
That’s right. So I think there was a convergence of two things at one time. One was just the ability now to prove to really provide the communicators with the tools to communicate without having to go through developers and writing code, writing HTML, or whatever we were writing back then ColdFusion, I think that was one of our first sort of markup languages. And so that was too, but that was one thing. And then pre pre Google AdWords, there were some other search marketing engines, one was called go to, and then overture. And so, and one went to Google and urgently, excuse me, and then one went to Yahoo.
But we were using those keyword buying programs, you know, two years before Google AdWords came out. So all of a sudden, we could provide this level of sort of financial accountability, which really was the first pivot for us to become a digital marketing agency. Right? Pretty soon, a lot of the stuff that we were involved in, you know, the web development side sort of went off into the enterprise, right, went off and sort of found a home in it. And then the digital marketing people remained connected to the marketing folks and the consumer side of the business. So that was, you know, the trajectory I wanted to be on it was really strange. You know, we did get up to like, 30 people, I think, in 2035. And I think about it back now, you know, now, it’s really interesting.
We were out, we were a Microsoft shop. I mean, half of my staff were, you know, dotnet developers and as I was writing Active Server Pages, people don’t even know what that is anymore. You know, and, and so half my, we were a Microsoft Certified shop, you know, and I realized that that was not my passion. I mean, I really loved what I love developers, and I especially love them these days. But that was because I didn’t want to get sucked into the IT area. I wanted to stay consumer focused. I mean, I was a music major and a philosophy major. I mean, I’m not heading in the math direction, right in my head. Yeah. Heading into the engineering side of the world.
John Corcoran 17:24
So and So you said this was in 2000. Course 2000 2001 911 happened, a big downturn, a lot of agencies had to lay off, did you have to do a bunch of layoffs around that time period? Oh, yeah. But 50%.
Andrew Eklund 17:39
Wow, What was that like? Yeah. And, you know, again, I sort of needed to use that as a catalyst. Right. And so it was right at that time, where I knew we had to do that financially. That’s when we made the hard pivot, really sort of away from development and started to work with other development agencies who have made that choice in their life. And we’re gonna choose to go this way. And then by that time, we were certified in Google AdWords, and, you know, and email marketing, you know, the guys from ExactTarget, who started ExactTarget, which became Salesforce marketing, cloud, they, I subleased them office space. So I had a front row seat to email marketing in 2002 and 2003.
Because they were in our offices we were working with, they were friends of mine, you know. And so we just got front row seats to Google AdWords who got front row seats to the exact target. And so for us to make a pivot, we already had great technology partners, and it just allowed us to sort of be children as right, the word means a trusted guide. It’s like, Okay, now we’re going this and we’re going to pull people with us into that new direction. And we really remain that way until, well, all the 2000s. And then by 2015, we had really layered in programmatic, and being much more data driven and audience and how we were doing what we now call audience design. Audience design for us came out of the AI stuff of the past year, but really, we’ve been doing audience design for a decade, at least.
John Corcoran 19:09
So, you mentioned all these different technologies that you are developing in house, which you didn’t spin off into something else. Maybe could have, would have, could have, could have become the next WordPress could have become Google Analytics could have become an email marketing platform. Is there any part of you that regrets that you didn’t do that?
Andrew Eklund 19:33
Look, you can look at it and say, coulda, woulda, shoulda, uh, but you have to finish the sentence, right? I coulda, woulda, shoulda, uh, been able to start a software company that has its helpdesk and has to figure out subscription models and has to figure out how to manage development cycles and product feature cycles and all this kind of stuff. You Know what, that’s not me, right to have a different set of, I don’t know how to scale that business, good ideas around those businesses. I think I still have a future in that, like, I still think we’re gonna we’re spinning up products right now that I think this time around, I think I’ll look at it very differently. And it might just be the word and things like GPT stores and other places, and other marketplaces where these tools might maybe get access to utilize through or have API’s built into.
And there’s some sort of interesting payment system on the back side which scales simply by usage, but and, and it’s, and that’s how it works. Like, I can do that. Yeah, I think I can do that. I haven’t done it yet. But I think I can do that. Right. And I think a lot of the tools of starting a business now, including being able to code, are essentially a Race to Zero right now. And so I think anybody with a good idea, I can pretty much start to think about having the ability to execute software relatively quickly. And that’ll be a big change from the old days.
John Corcoran 21:04
How was 2008? Great Recession downturn? How did that affect you compared to the nine eleven.com? Burst?
Andrew Eklund 21:13
Well, 911 was so hard, because it was so emotional. And I was a young parent at the time. And you, you know, you spent a lot of time wondering what were all your kids gonna grow up into at the time, we didn’t know if we’re heading into World War Three. I mean, it was, you know, and then not only that, but then you know, right after that the Iraq war was already fraught with so many problematic decisions. So now, not only was the business hurting the business, and then we had a geopolitical thing, which a lot of us were looking at it just going this is no, we bombed the wrong country. You know, and so now all of a sudden, you had the stress of that. And so, you know, 2008 was different, because that was like a macro economic failure of a system that we had nothing to do with the banking system, you know,
John Corcoran 22:07
Yeah, I mean, but still, so many companies are, you know, are suffering the consequences of it. The fair?
Andrew Eklund 22:14
Yeah. But no question in the thing that I think is the really big Miss Johnson, while there was a kid there was Miss justice after 911 went to war in the wrong country. And then there was Miss justice done in 2008 and 2009. And that is that very few if anybody suffered any consequences. like, Nope, there was no justice in I don’t think anybody didn’t know and went to jail.
John Corcoran 22:36
Yeah, that people talk about that a lot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Eklund 22:40
And It hurt us badly. I mean, we went once again, I think we went down to six people. Wow, in 2009.
John Corcoran 22:48
So, at this point, where you’re 14 years into the business, you’ve got maybe one or two kids at this point. 14 years into the business made a couple of pivots. And this global macro economic crisis comes through and you go down to six employees. If you can recall, what was your headspace like at that point in time?
Andrew Eklund 23:10
Here we go again. Yeah. I mean, I don’t know about 2008 and 2000. I mean, I remember it, but like, I believe that I had been through it before. And so I sort of knew what to do. I knew what I had to do. I tried to use empathy. Right, I tried to, one of the things I think we’ve always done well, is I think we’ve really helped people find jobs right away.
Like we open up our network. So we tried to meet like, I’m sorry, I couldn’t do it. But you know, here are some people for you to talk to. And I, I just had coffee this morning with somebody who I had to let go a little bit later than that. And we had coffee this morning. And we’re networking, and I’m helping her find a new job, you know, and yeah, I mean, so I think that that was a big piece of it. And so like the COVID and then going through COVID, then I hate to say it, I mean, I really don’t want to sound like just a jaded bat. But like, I can kind of know what I need to do like with AI.
John Corcoran 24:10
Like, I know, that was gonna be my next question was, you know, with COVID code comes along, you know, not to flashforward 11 years later, but after 2009 I think a lot of companies, especially companies that had been in business for a while, as you had in this in the case, and when COVID came along, and 2020 a lot of companies acted a lot quicker that time because they realized that they hadn’t acted quick enough during previous crisis.
Andrew Eklund 24:36
Yeah, I mean, I did a lot of different things during COVID. COVID was a difficult time because it was a false sense of reality all over the place. We were bolstered by the PPP loans, which we’re immensely grateful for. They were forgiven. It allowed us to continue to employ the people that we did, even if the market couldn’t couldn’t bear it. As you know, we did our best. Obviously, we made a ton of pivots, right. But I think we had a very, very tight knit group of people before COVID. And then when we were all scattered about, I was getting very, very, to keep the same level of service levels. And we’re very human in our interactions with our clients, because we’re always talking about new things, things they haven’t heard about, we try not to use the new language or whatever the new thing is, but it creeps into our language. And so, you know, being able to be face to face, and very human.
And so they can see in our face that we’re not trying to act smart, or we’re not trying to are certainly not trying to make them feel dumb. You know, it’s just that we’re sort of living a little bit in the future. And sometimes the language changes, right? So when we didn’t have that during COVID anymore, it became really difficult to make the strong sorts of things. And then and let’s be honest, clients were also extremely under extreme pressures. We have lots of health care clients, you know, they were trying to run hospitals during COVID. Right, so they’re dying. Yeah. So it was just a heightened level of everything. And then when sort of COVID was, quote, unquote, over, we just had to dust off and say, Well, what are we now?
Like, I bought a building during COVID and renovated it, and for an excitement for everybody to come back. Tuesdays and Wednesdays, right? And I’m okay with that. I now mean I have three other days of the week that I can fill with small teams, and we’re going to be doing a little co-working space now. Because everyone loves this building. It’s become already a little bit iconic in a way. But you know, everyone says they’re looking for conference space, they can’t find conference rooms, and I’ve got more conference rooms, and they’re all beautiful.
John Corcoran 26:57
And so you convert, you convert it to something else. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was your team, your team was totally in person before COVID
Andrew Eklund 27:06
100 100%.
John Corcoran 27:08
So what was that transition like for your team? Then? In the early days of COVID, having to shift everything, you know, were you like buying laptops and firing up slack for the first time? What was that? Like?
Andrew Eklund 27:23
Yeah. So I think the things that there were, there were so many things, first of all, the team at that time where it was quite tight, and they really did pull through together really well. But my, sort of my co pilot in the agency right now, is a woman named Carrie Helling. And she’s also just been a dear friend of mine for most of my adult life. And we resisted working with each other for decades. And she came on a few years before COVID. And she’s just an extremely empathetic, very human, great listener. And so she went from doing what she had been doing to really sort of being like Chief of Staff, Chief of culture, Chief of Staff, ensuring that people had what they needed, that we were figuring out how to communicate better, that she would drive hundreds of miles along with our office manager at the time and deliver like, like beautiful blankets to people. Right, like cozy blankets, right?
John Corcoran 28:37
Or booze, or, or whatever it was, blanket and booze that.
Andrew Eklund 28:41
Whatever, you know, we just did so many of those kinds of things, and so did so many other people. I don’t want to just say that she did everything. But she, you know it, became a really big thing like how do we survive this? How do we not become a new level of stress? And so what the PPP loans did essentially allowed us to live a little as stress free, as was possible. The problem was, that all of that ran out, right? And the economy still wasn’t back again. And we’re still trying to figure out how to work. And then AI comes along.
And so I’ve used this sort of post COVID moment to say, well, first of all, I just fundamentally believe that the technology itself is transformative and disruptive. Once I know it, I’ve studied it. I put my 10,000 hours in, you know, I don’t have clairvoyance. I don’t have I can’t tell you the future. But I’ve seen the future many times and it is all following the same trajectory. Right? The adoption curves, the hype cycles, that they get high and then they’ll crash like the AI cycle will crash. It’s going to crash next year. Right? And then there’s going to be like.
John Corcoran 29:54
When you say that you mean like people? What do you mean, how do you see that playing out?
Andrew Eklund 29:59
Well Oh, I hate to. I don’t think it’s a false equivalency. Okay. But like if you take the crypto market, right, the crypto market that happened during the pandemic.
John Corcoran 30:07
Yeah, it had a lot of outside noise around it.
Andrew Eklund 30:11
Yeah, 10,000 coins would launch because it was no problem at all these NFT projects and all these kinds of stuff. And you know that people who are paying attention, we’re saying 99% of this is going away. Yeah. Why did we say that? Because we did.com in 99. Yeah, and 99% We all knew 99% of that was gonna go away. But what came out of that?
John Corcoran 30:33
Amazon, Google, right, like, and, and some of those were just too early, like the web fans of the world. Were too early. And the technology was too raw and too.
Andrew Eklund 30:40
You know, rudimentary. We had terrible bandwidth. We didn’t have bandwidth to dial up, do it on dial up.
John Corcoran 30:48
Yeah, yeah. So the experience wasn’t there. So now, I love your enthusiasm and your excitement. After 30 years of running the same company, you still have the same enthusiasm and excitement, and it’s contagious, and you’re excited about the future.
Andrew Eklund 31:05
I’m so excited about the future. And I’ll tell you very specifically, why. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done in a modern technological world that we live in, that humans don’t like doing. Period. It’s busy work. It’s not productive. It doesn’t challenge your intellect terribly much. It’s just the busy labor that we do. And a lot of our time goes to that a lot more than we think actually, we’re not even aware of the amount of real estate, right?
John Corcoran 31:36
Yeah, I’d like it to be like the elevator operator. Like when we had early elevators, there’s a guy in the elevator standing there all day long to do a crank, right and close the door. And we thought that that was just normal until we realize that now we don’t need to have someone like that. Right?
Andrew Eklund 31:51
Yeah. And there’s just so much of there’s so much stuff that we do every day. And we because and I know this because I’ll say, hey, let’s find some time to like, let’s find a half day where we can just sit in a room and brainstorm this thing out. And like, though getting those meetings on the calendar is hard because there’s not enough time for it sometimes. And I think it was that if we don’t have time for that, then what is occupying our time, right? And then when you really look at that, you start to say, Well, we do push a lot of things around. Yeah, right. And it’s not like people are not doing their jobs.
That’s just part of the job. So I look at all of that and I look at what’s happening with AI. And I look specifically at what’s happened, what’s going to happen around AI agents, which essentially can take a command from the human voice, saying, I need to set up a campaign for Acme Company, please use segments 668 32 and 46. Because I know what those are, right? And I want you to launch it based upon the optimizations of last month. And while you’re at it, if you could find me two new audience segments, who looked like the most highest performing segments out of this campaign, go and do a smart contract to figure out how we can access that data.
And you’re literally telling it to do that, and why or while you’re having the meeting, it will go and start doing that for you. Because it knows what you’re asking for. No, it’s learned your language, it’s learned your processes, it’s learned how to do things. Yeah. And what does that do? Well, it allows the people who work at Ciceron here to invest almost all of their time into the intellectual higher pursuits of what are we actually trying to do here, which is, like in the case of our healthcare clients to save lives, right, in our entertainment clients is to introduce new music to consumers who would love to know that that music exists, right? In the eCommerce business, it’s just simply putting a product that we know you’re going to like, make sure that you have the opportunity to see that and it doesn’t empathetically, because I’m not going to give you that product if you’re not going to buy it. Because I am also empathetic to my clients budget.
Right? Yeah. So it’s like there’s just like this empathy exchange, if you look at advertising differently, in AI, in order for us to be empathetic, we need to get all the busy work out of the way so that we have more time to think about what humans are trying to do. And so I’m trying to take Ciceron and up to a level of mindshare mind power, because we can automate the things that are underneath it. And frankly, take away labor from my existing employees. That’s not gratifying labor anyways. Yeah. I get to take away the things they don’t like about their jobs.
John Corcoran 34:42
I have two questions related to that. First, I want to know what it was like when you had this epiphany that AI is going to revolutionize and change everything for us. And you went back to the team and said, we need to do a full on Pivot as the team like oh, well, there he goes again or whatever. Were they in agreement? Or were they like, oh, absolutely not. What was that reaction like?
Andrew Eklund 35:06
Well, so there was a very specific, specific event. I was working with a client, still a client of ours, a very good client. And I realized that this chat up at 3.5, it just came out. Right, you’ve mentioned it earlier, I think it’s, you know, just November 22. And so I was immediately playing with it, and everything else, I was trying to figure out use cases and just playing around with it. And I was in a meeting in Denver, at the client offices, and I was in and I was listening to a lot of salespeople talk. And the director of sales leader of the sales group was there and, and VPs were there and, and they were talking about the customers like, who are the people that they should be going after.
And it was kind of like that, the analogy, that overused analogy of like, if you put a blindfold on and put six people in a room with a hand on an elephant and different places, they’re going to describe it to completely different, I think that what happened to it was that they all had an under a different understanding of what was happening with with the customer they couldn’t really hone in, it all depends upon all the different conversations that they had. And they weren’t honing in on anything. And what I realized was that I could take this, at that point, very rudimentary, I, they had been entering notes from all of their calls that they had been had, not all of them, some of them, some are great note takers, and some are really terrible note takers.
But they were going into Salesforce, and they were taking notes, after all of these calls, you know, sat down with a couple, they’re in their 70s, they have, you know, such and such plot of land, these are their aspirations, they, you know, they have grandchildren that they love, you know, all the different things, right? And that and they didn’t respond well to when we brought this up, they did respond well, when you add all that kind of stuff. So I took all of that information, and I put it into the verb, there were early MLMs. And I basically instructed it and prompted it a lot more than just asking a couple of questions. Tell me about these phone calls.
And are they breaking into any cohorts of customer segments? And it magically sort of took all of that conversational data, and turned it into four new personas based upon actual conversations from actual people. And then when I shared that with the client, and I told them what I was doing, I said, I’m just trying things here, you know what I mean? Like, I don’t think I’m even charging you for it. So let’s just figure that I share them with him. They’re like, that makes sense.
Now, what it did for us, it made sense to, we were able to go and actually map out the kinds of content in the language that we would need and and the type of creative, I was then able to take that and turn it into data by saying these are personas. Now I’m going to match that up against data sets that we have available to us that look like those people. And now I can take that inactivated market creatively using the language that the people have expressed. So that was like the early test. And when as soon as we launched those new segments, we had a 300% increase in sales, qualified leads and SQL MQLs. And I knew right there, and then this is what we’re doing.
And so now we’ve taken that up to a much higher level of sophistication, where we’re recording, we’re having sales organizations and customer service teams record all of their conversations. And then they don’t have to take notes. So we catch everything and then do voice to text. And then conversational data becomes what feeds into the LLM, which then starts to do a much deeper level of segmentation, which then we are going into the market for audience data, we are going into the market with a currency that’s very strong, our clients going into the market with a strong currency. That is all because of a little teeny experimental test that happened like 16 months ago. And now it’s a product that we call audience design. That’s much more scaled, and it’s much more interesting, and it’s much deeper and the LLM ‘s are just so much smarter and faster now.
John Corcoran 39:06
And, so back to the team, how you explain this to your team, they need to make this pivot. Did you know that you know, kind of the realization? Or how do you?
Andrew Eklund 39:17
How did they bring them on the journey? Right? I brought them on the journey. I didn’t do it really in a black box. I mean, I did go off and experiment some stuff. And then I brought it in and I said here’s what I’m working on. And that staff meeting I would show them what I was doing. And I would ask them to help me improve this, like what the hell I know, right? I’m no smarter than you. All I did was open the application and start using it. Like how many times in your career do you get to do that? Like, do something and then after doing Simon.
John Corcoran 39:44
Have discovered games, yeah, you’re kind of an expert. How do you think about the team that you need in the future and how you hire for the new team that you don’t even know really what it’s going to look like? How do you hire people now for this new iteration of the company?
Andrew Eklund 40:06
That is going to change dramatically. But the tools and our maturity in this aren’t there yet. But in the future, I’m just gonna want the smartest people I can possibly find within the verticals that we work that have the very best subject matter expertise, who are assisted by this great technology. And maybe, like, for example, I think I know, I’m going to need more data scientists, I’m going to need more, I probably am going to need some Python developers. Like right now, I don’t need them on staff, I know who they are.
And I can call them up and we can collaborate on our project. But now as we operationalize this sort of thing, I probably want them to do sort of the finishing work, right? Customization, weird data, all that kind of stuff. For whatever reason, the AI can’t process it. Although I think that’s becoming increasingly uncertain. I think what I need to do right now is to stay exactly the same size as I am with my amazing team. And I think we need to backfill talent with technology.
So I’m going to take the staff that I have, we’re going to, we’re elevating, and we’re going to fill in with technology. And these people that are amazing already are just going to be more amazing here. And we’ll have more time to do that. And we’re going to grow together as a new agency. And that’s terribly exciting.
John Corcoran 41:45
I love positivity. And I want to wrap all this up, which has been great. With my last question, which is I’m a big fan of gratitude, especially expressing gratitude to those who’ve helped you along the way especially peers, contemporaries, others that you’ve known for a while, maybe? Who would you want to thank?
Andrew Eklund 42:05
Well, a couple of things. gratitudes was a really important thing to me. I think it even showed you I have a tattoo of gratitude on my so cool. And so I appreciate you asking that question. Because, you know, I’m so grateful to the people who have stuck by me during a lot of this. You know, I’m very grateful to the team that I have right now, because they’ve already been through a lot of change. But even larger than that is you know, I just have an incredible peer network of other agency owners. You mentioned Peter Garretson. Earlier, I’m a member of the TAM network, which is an independent network of agency owners just like us.
We spend, you know, a couple times a year together and much more than that, and in Slack, and just having a peer network of other agency owners, who are not competitive, who know who had been there before, who know how to steer you. They’re my inspiration. We’ve been together and best of times, and worst of times, and I don’t have an advisory board, I’ve never had one, it’s stupid. That’s one thing I’d do differently, I should do it, I should still do it now. But it’s almost like they’re my advisory board too, right? So. And then I just have, I have a bunch of competitors of mine who are here and in the Twin Cities, and we’ve known each other forever.
We grew up together and we compete. And then we can go out and have a great time and they’re just the nicest people and I just have amazing competitive people who lead agencies here in town, and we stay close, and we support each other during good times and bad. You know, some of us are exactly the same. And some of us are very different. And we get to collaborate. Because there’s nothing like running an agency, I really believe that you know, I mean, just just ease, you know, at the very best, we’re the first budgets to go when times are bad. And the last to come back when things are when things are getting good. So we only have little windows to be awesome.
John Corcoran 44:02
And there’s this, it’ll be great. Where can people go to learn more about you and Ciceron?
Andrew Eklund 44:06
Great, thank you. Well, ciceron.com C I C E R O N.com. Do follow us on LinkedIn to put it out on LinkedIn, follow my cell I publish a lot. That’s why I’ve just used that now as my sort of network because I have a really well quite a large network there to try and port that over to Patreon or something else like that. It just sounds like too much work. And so LinkedIn, you find myself and Rockland or her this is her own blog and
John Corcoran 44:33
yeah, great, Andrew, thank you so much. Thanks, I appreciate it.
Chad Franzen 44:40
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