John Corcoran 13:06
Yeah, now you offer translation and editing services in English, Hebrew, Spanish, French, Chinese, Russian, Arabic, German, Portuguese, I’m just reading off your, their LinkedIn list. And what I want to know is, you know, a lot of times entrepreneurs struggle with this idea, moving beyond what they’re capable of doing. So how did you move into these other languages and ensure that you’re going to deliver a quality product? When I imagine you don’t speak all those different languages?
Avi Staiman 13:34
If that’s the first question I get asked a lot, when I tell people I run a, you know, a language company, is they say, Oh, well, you must speak 1000 languages, I’m actually, you know, I speak to, that’s it. So I’m not one of these, like, you know, European geniuses who like, you know, just can kind of, you know, speak eight languages. I just want to give a little bit of background, for folks who aren’t familiar. Basically, the company that I that I run academic language experts in that I founded, what we do is we our goal is to help scholars to publish their research. So for example, I don’t know, let’s say, you know, take your take yourself back two years in the middle of pandemic, you’re a Scot, you’re an academic and you think you’re a researcher, and you think you’ve found the vaccine for Khurana like, you’ve got it, right? How does that get out into the world, you can’t just like, send out a press release, like I’ve got it, what you need to do is you need to take your research, you need to, you know, polish it, make it perfect, and then send it off to a journal. Now, what’s gonna happen at that journal it’s gonna happen at that publisher, is they’re gonna put it through a rigorous peer review process. That’s how science works, right? They’re gonna have like, you know, other scholars come in and attack it from every angle, and try to figure out like, what’s the problem here? Because we want you know, we assume as a society that basically facts are what science dictates or tells us but if that scientific process and method isn’t rigorous And we can’t trust that process, then like all of a sudden, well, what are facts anymore? Like what is what is the value of research? So? So, at the beginning, we really were a language company. So we’re talking about translation editing. And I’ll get back to your question in a minute. But I think what happened was is that, you know, I just started trying to listen to what our scholars need. And what I realized is, the language services were a vehicle towards an end. And the end goal was their, them getting their science out to the world, then being able to communicate in an effective and quick and cost effective way, what they were trying, which really is like their passion, their baby, I mean, researchers can work for 5 10 years, you know, to solve a specific problem or to do a study, you know, that has an impact on the world. So we were we’re developing a suite of services to kind of help those researchers through that process. Now, one of the major services that we offer, and that we’ve always offered is translation. And that gets back to your question. So the answer is, is that essentially, we have a team on our team internally, I mean, we don’t have a very large team, but we speak seven different languages between us now. So that’s one way of doing some of the quality control. Number two is, is that you know, we built out a really loyal and dedicated team of freelancers around the world that we work with vary continuously. So when we do have a language that that falls outside of, you know, our normal sort of internal review process, we will outsource and do a secondary review by one of our freelancers will get people to check each other with a very, we vet quite vigorously when it comes to who’s working for us. And we’re taking one in every 25 to 30 applicants that apply. And over time, I think those who have a keen ear for language and you’re you’ve said you’re an English major, so I imagined that, you know, you probably have this, you know, you can pick up a text, and pretty quickly get a feel for is it written well, so even if I don’t know the source language, right, let’s say it’s Chinese English, I get most of the time read the English and say, I feel like there’s a translation here. And actually, the way that we define our goal to our staff is people should read it and never have a clue that it was translated in the first place. It should read naturally coherent, you’re enjoying the reading experience and process. And I think that’s a mistake, you know, that many people are, you know, the common conception of translation, which is just like, Oh, you’re moving words from one language to another. But I think we’ve all seen what Google Translate, you know, how screwed up that can be, when that’s the concept. And really, we’re approaching it from an entirely different viewpoint, one that says, What is good writing look like? And how do we, on the one hand, honor the source text and, and treat it as authoritative because we’re not here to make up our own shit, right? We’re here to like, give over what we’re supposed to be giving her. But on the other hand, make it render it in a way which is really beautiful and elegant and literary in the in the target language. And that’s really, I think, the sort of the art form that is high quality translation. So there are certain even though you’re right, there are differences between every language and every language needs. So an expert’s and expertise. There’s a sort of common theme and common thread of good writing that I think, you know, kind of goes through that entire process. Right, right.
John Corcoran 18:04
I want to ask about because, you know, I’ve been in kind of the world of b2b for a long time. Most of the clients I’ve worked with even going back to practicing law were businesses. And so there’s, if you get beneath everything, there’s ultimately a profit motive, they want to make money. But that’s not the case with your clientele. And you know, maybe they’re a graduate student, maybe they’re studying for their postdoc, maybe it’s a PhD or something like that. A lot of times, yeah, imagine you’ve got clientele that don’t have a lot of discretionary money to throw around. So how have you managed to overcome that? How have you managed to get them to spend money on these services?
Avi Staiman 18:43
That’s a really good question. I think it’s a keen observation, because most people don’t ask that question. But it’s actually something that we, you know, kind of struggle with, you know, that I wouldn’t say maybe struggle is not the right word. But we’ve contended with throughout the course of the history of the business,
John Corcoran 18:56
well, you’ve managed to build a business in spite of it. So I’m curious.
Avi Staiman 18:59
And I’ll tell you, John, there were times at the beginning, where I said to myself, What the hell am I doing? Like, why am I not just building a legal trends? You know, like, let’s stick with the translation, fine, great, stick with the editing, but just do it for law firms and do it for you know, medical, for pharma companies, like, you know, there’s so much more money to be made there. You know, obviously, the competition is also, you know, in line with that, right. It’s not like, you know, necessarily low hanging fruit. And I think, what, what I realized, oh, there’s two things, two primary things, first of all, is we have had to identify our core clientele, not as the folks who mentioned so not as the students not as the doctoral candidates, not as the postdocs, rather the senior scholars who have funding from their institution, so most scholars will have a discretionary funds that they can tap into, you know, kind of on an annual basis, they can apply for external funding from big, you know, from the National Institute of Health in the States, the National Scientific Science Foundation. Those are like big, there’s big money there, that can be tapped into for researchers. So you know, that’s kind of what just identifying our core clientele has been an important part. And there’s, there’s a trade off to that, you know, it kills me that I can’t help the doctoral students nearly as much as I’d like to. But you know, oftentimes, it’s just beyond their means, especially because they’re students, as well. And number two is really understanding the value of creating a unique niche, or unique business in a niche, which allows you to a certain extent to dictate pricing. So I actually think in an ironic twist, I have more flexibility on pricing now than I ever would have had I gone down the legal and scientific route, because if you’re a lawyer, and you’re looking for, you know, a law firm, from Spanish to English, if you know, if ABI you know, and academic language experts are too expensive, well, you’ve got 15 other you know, the places in the phonebook or go onto Google reviews that you can kind of, you know, hit up, there might be differences, we might have a higher quality, but like, it’s just so easy to price compare, what we’re doing is so unique. And we’re not the only company, there is an industry where we’re in the industry called author services. So it’s basically how to help researchers, you know, publish, there are other players in the market, there aren’t many, in my opinion, you know, not all of them are doing it in, you know, in a great way. So, we kind of have become a little bit unique, and build ourselves our own niche so that our reputation kind of enables us to dictate pricing now, that’s within certain parameters, right? Like, you know, the research budgets aren’t endless. But yes, there have been scholars, especially over Chronos said, you know, what, like, I see the value, you know, because essentially what happened, someone once told me, you know, to think about it this way, people will pay as much for a translation, and you can fill in the blank for anything of it, you know, really, I think, when it comes to business, people will pay as much as they have to lose if it goes wrong. Okay. And I think that’s a that’s important in in, you know, in law and other fields as well, meaning what’s on the line? That’s really the question, you know, and that’s a question I think every business owner has to ask in their clients minds, what’s on the line, if this gets totally screwed up, and, you know, is a big failure? And if the answer is not much, well, maybe the business value proposition is not actually as valuable as we think it is. So in our case, in the case of research, support, what’s on the line is so many is so many different things. First of all, its its pride, and its name recognition has status. And the end of the day scholars, you know, for talking about deep needs, like they really want to leave a legacy they feel they care very deeply about the research topic they’ve chosen. Most of them, this is their life work, like they’ve chosen to dedicate their time, their energy, you know, I kind of sometimes the analogy that I use is like, it’s like, they kind of when they come to us, it’s kind of like, they’re dropping their baby off the childcare and saying, I, you know, I’m very nervous, but I’m going to trust you with my way, you better bring it back, you know, like, tip top, right? There’s no, and people get really sensitive about that, and really care deeply. On the flip side, when we do a great job, which thankfully, we do most of the time. You know, people are very loyal, right, they come back again, and again. And again, because they say, you know, I want my baby to have the best. But we’ve really kind of been able to, you know, carve out this niche. And because it’s unique, we’ve been able to kind of not have to worry so much about price competition and things of that nature. So that so what they have to lose, if it gets screwed up is basically they don’t get published, which means that they their legacy that they want to leave is not fulfilled, be they’re not getting, they’re not, that’s the currency in the academic world. So they’re not getting promoted, and we’re talking about promotions are dependent on, you know, frequency and quality of publications, and its reputation, you know, in it among their colleagues. So like a lot is riding on the success. So you have scholars that not only you know, will tap into their own research funds, but will also pay out of pocket because they realize that it’s kind of an investment in themselves and an investment in their careers by getting help from us. So it really has enabled us, you know, what we’re charging. Now, to be honest, he’s probably more than what most legal translation companies are charging for their work. So that’s kind of just to give you a bit perspective.
John Corcoran 24:00
Wow, interesting. How have you figured out what additional services to provide and when it’s the right time to go into those other areas as well?
Avi Staiman 24:11
Yeah, really good question. I mean, a lot of it, like I said before, it’s just listening is just like, you know, what, I think what we realized after a few years is we were doing a lot of this language stuff, right? We’re doing translation, we’re doing editing. And people would come back to us or our clients would come back to us when they got rejected from a journal and say, you know, what did you do? Like, why? Why did it get rejected? And we would turn around to them and say, Listen, we put our hands up and say, well, listen, we’re editing your research, but we’re not the researchers, right? Like, like, if you put together crap research, or you didn’t bother, you know, getting, you know, your statistics, right, like, we can help you with that. But then I realized that I was having more and more of these conversations. And I said to myself, Well, maybe if that’s the case, then maybe we shouldn’t be pushing, you know, language services. Maybe that’s not the solution for everybody. Maybe different scholars need different things, maybe, you know, we could translate something like Shakespeare, that doesn’t mean that it’s going to get accepted. So what we started to do is think, Okay, well, what are the services that we can build out that really would be helpful, so we’ve sort of segmented it. So first, we said, well, we’ve got the Junior Scholars, they don’t know what they’re doing. In many cases, their advisors are oftentimes a wall. And it’s a very dog-eat-dog world. So no one’s helping them, right. So there’s this feeling of isolation of being alone. So we built this service. And, you know, it’s kind of made up what I’m, you know, it’s not like I necessarily looked around and is like, Oh, this other business is doing it. So let’s copy that, like, I just made this up from what I realized people need. So you know, and we, as a team really did this. So you know, for example, the first you know, so one of the services we developed was an academic coaching service, where people can hop on Zoom, hop on the phone, and kind of have an advisor or coach, to walk them through the process and give them tips not to do the work for them. But to kind of guide them in the right direction, then we realize scholars had a really hard time when they wanted to write a book, putting together a strong book proposal, which if you want to publish a book, your proposal needs to be really top notch, you need to be able to define who your audience is, you need to be able to find define, like, how you’re going to sell the book. And the scholars were, like, totally lost, they’re like, if you want me to tell you about my research, I can, but you want me to tell you about like, who my target market is, like, I don’t know, you know, like, that’s your job. And it would just be this gap there. So we said, okay, we can fill that gap. This isn’t rocket science, like, you know, we’ll help scholars tease out, whoo, there, you know, Target, you know, market is, and, you know, So little things like that, you know, academic review. So someone wants to come with, you know, a scholar works on a project for four years, they don’t see the blind spots in their research. So having an external consultant come in and say, Okay, listen, what you did here was great, but maybe in this section, you need to kind of consider other research that was done, or maybe you’ve repeated yourself, you know, that’s really valuable to them. So it’s really just kind of been ear to the ground, getting a lot of feedback. You know, we used to do a lot of what I what we call dumb learning from client phone calls to two weeks after a project was finished, I would say to my team, get on the phone, call them and ask them what was good, what was bad, what was missing? And we learned a lot through that process. I wish we would do that, you know, we don’t do that as often nowadays. I wish we we did. Because I think that it’s just like you can there’s no end. As soon as you think you know, your clients, you realize like, there’s more to know. And there’s more now and there’s more to know,
John Corcoran 27:22
no to obvious team after they listen to this interview, start doing those calls. Yeah. There’s this story, early in the early days of your company, where you had built out this kind of semi automated process for price quoting, and there’s a little bit of a screw up. But tell us about what happened.
Avi Staiman 27:43
That’s very kind of you to say little, at the time, I thought it was like, you know, earth shattering. So at a certain point in the business, I think what I what I realized was is that in order for this not just to become kind of like a hodgepodge service, and really become something that was scalable, I would need to automate certain parts of the business. And my approach was, you know, we’re very much a human, you know, human focused, and we have all of our translations are completed by by, by people, not by machines. You know, all the edits are done by people. And I think, you know, we can talk about that if you want, but, but essentially, what happened was that I realized there were certain parts, like sending out price quotes, where there was no added value to having a person involved. Right. And that was something I was, you know, still today, always think about, what where’s the added value of having the person involved, and where’s the automation come in, and really help, you know, to kind of enable the business to scale and to grow. And we were testing, so we were kind of testing out and just kind of piloting this new kind of automated pricing. You know, that would go out with a button that would be clicked by, by clients to approve a quote, somehow, some way without getting into the boring details. We had sent out a price quote, in the amount of $19,000, to a professor, you know, at professor named Benjamin Selma, and I will, I’m saying his name, and you’ll, you’ll know why, by the end of the story, because full credit goes to him, but we sent him a price quote, he, and somehow it got approved in our in our system, I don’t know if it was human error or automated, so it doesn’t really matter. We went ahead and we translated the book, we sent it to him, and he said, Oh, I never approved that quote, you know, and my heart sank. I mean, there was a chase as a $20,000 project. And, you know, it was kind of the beginning of the business. So this was one of our big book, first books, you know, it was like a really big, you know, we’re really proud of it. And, you know, I was, of course, gonna pay the translator, I mean, we have commissioned her to complete the work, and I was like, we’re gonna, you know, this is gonna take me a year to climb out of this pit, Do I even want to do a show? I just closed the business. And I said to myself, You know what I got to do I just have to pick up the phone to a professor somewhere and just tell them what happened, you know, and, and, you know,
John Corcoran 29:53
I don’t know that must have taken a lot of courage to make that happen. You know,
Avi Staiman 29:55
in retrospect, it did, but I didn’t. I didn’t really have a choice. Right, like what was I going to do? Just eat it? Like, I was like, This is my Hail Mary and maybe Hill, I don’t know, come across a stumble across, you know, an extra, you know, I don’t know pocket of money on his way home anyway, gave him a phone call. It was his kindness cubby and said, Listen, I get it. Like, I understand. We’re gonna, I’ll find it. You know, I wasn’t I wasn’t, I know, I wasn’t sure about it before. I wasn’t ready to you know, but if you’ve already done it, let’s just go ahead and do it. Like, let’s find it. And let’s go ahead with the project. And now
John Corcoran 30:29
this is how you do all your sales, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Avi Staiman 30:33
I didn’t realize you were being charged? Well, no, I’m happy to say that we have since that date, we put in a lot of precautions to make sure that never happens again. Yeah. You know, so that’s, that’s no longer an issue. But, but really, I, you know, I give him so much credit, because, you know, he could have very easily turned around and full right to say, okay, you know, you’re up the creek, good luck. But he didn’t, and, and he’s, you know, he’s just a kind man. So so, you know, I’m thankful for that experience. And to really, you know, kind of have that, but, but it you know, it definitely taught me a number of lessons in terms of, you know, client communication, you know, double checking, making sure that everything is working, right, testing, you know, new, new, you know, we’re putting out a new version of the software that working on, you know, doing thorough testing on it, but make sure there’s no bug. So, you know, a lot of lessons learned, but but also, you know, we’re all going to screw up. I mean, that’s part of when I train new employees, we always say, you know, like, you’re going to screw up. And that’s, that’s all right, it’s a matter of taking ownership, it’s a matter of taking responsibility and learning from it.
John Corcoran 31:38
Yeah, I know, we’re running a little short on time here. But a couple of final questions. One, I think it’s really interesting. You’ve kind of you host these live webinars that are kind of like a live podcast, that really, really kind of bring people together academics and people that are interested in connecting with one another. Talk a little bit about how that came about, and and what impact that has on the business? Yeah, for sure. So
Avi Staiman 32:01
basically, what I came to a realization, I started getting a lot of calls, or maybe I always got a lot of calls from researchers who would say to me, okay, you know, let’s go back to the example of the researchers got the, you know, the vaccine research. So they need to publish it, that’s the only way to kind of get credit, you know, credit credentials and proof of, of your, you know, research validity. But a lot of them struggle with that process of like, well, there are, you know, I don’t know, you know, a few folks know, this, there are like, 10s of 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of journals in the world. So how to find which one, which ones are valuable, which ones aren’t, where should I publish, or should I not publish, there’s a whole predatory scam industry out there of like, you know, a fake journals, like it’s a, it’s a, it’s a wild, wild west in many ways. So I get a lot of these phone calls. And what I realized was, is there’s kind of these, there’s the researchers on the one side, right, who are like, you know, producing and working on the work. And then on the flip side, on the other side, there are the publishers and there that their job is to get that out there and make sure it gets the libraries and make sure it gets to all the other researchers. And they really do do a very poor job of speaking to each other, a lot of speaking past each other a lot of, you know, kind of not paying attention. Of course, speaking in very generic terms, you know, they’re wonderful people in in both of these industries, but they didn’t do a great job communicating. So what I decided to do was live zoom sessions, where I basically would invite, you know, leaders in the academic publishing industry. So for example, I’ve had the head of the head of NYU press, I’ve had the head of Princeton University Press, I’ve had the head of the conversation, which is a really interesting website, kind of a news website, which, which turns academic research into news. So like, latest, you know, findings that like people will really be interested about and written in a, you know, accessible way. You know, really fascinating folks that have kind of come on. And what I do is I invite the audience or researchers who are like, I want to publish with Princeton, I want to publish with NYU, like, how do I do that? And then they’re hearing straight from the horse’s mouth, as they say, right? Like, they’re, they’re really getting top line information. Because I’m, you know, I’m bringing in top, you know, top of the line guests, you know, so for example, next month, I’m going to be talking with the chief editor at The Lancet, which is one of the most important medical journals in the world. And she’s going to be talking about, like, how do they decide what topics are important to publish? Right, which is, like, sort of a very basic, fundamental question. It’s like, why do we decide like, as scientists like what we care about, and right, as in science, well,
John Corcoran 34:33
yeah, and it’s so important for researchers to understand that. I mean, I would
Avi Staiman 34:37
say it’s so important for like, all of us that for sure. Like all of us, like, you know, you know, and I think that we what we learned over the pandemic is that, you know, I don’t know about you, John, I know that I grew up like in my schooling, just kind of assuming that like, scientific method was something that everyone just believed in, you know, and research was backed. And I think that what I learned over the pandemic was that that is very much not true for large swaths of the country in the US and also across the world. And you kind of have to It’s like more of a prove it attitude. It’s like, Well, you say that what you’re saying is fact and you say you’ve done the research, but how do I know that’s true? And what I think and that’s one of the reasons also that I took on this podcasting role for the new books network of being the host of the science, scholarly communications podcast, is an understanding that if we don’t do a better job of communicating what it is, well, what the hell’s going on, in, you know, these universities and in these research institutes, and explain it in a way that each and every person can understand, then we run the risk of people not appreciating and understanding the value of research at you know, altogether, and the value of science. And I think that’s kind of, you know, if we’re, we did a lot of thinking, we did a lot of talking in this session about looking back at like in the early days, but if I’m thinking, forward thinking, and thinking ahead, so really kind of our mission, and our goal is to help researchers communicate that research in an effective way to help universities and institutions. So that’s kind of a shift from the b2c to b2b. And to try to help these institutions say ask the hard questions of how do we help our scholars to really produce research a that’s, you know, viable and strong, but be that’s communicable. And that’s understandable to the wider, wider world. And that’s something that is slowly but surely catching on, that’s the trend is that you need to be able to communicate what you’re doing to folks who don’t have a PhD. Because in the end of the day, it’s right, it’s John, it’s you and I that are paying the taxes that are supporting the, you know, the scientists, it’s you and I that, you know, are going to the hospitals, you know, which are which are making decisions based on that research. So it’s really, really critical, you know, comes down to facts and fiction, right? It’s really critical that those things that we call facts, that we have a shared language in society, about those things that we call facts, are actually grounded in facts, right, and are actually provable and repeatable. And those things are kind of what lies at the heart of what gets me excited, you know, and gets me, you know, pumped up for work every day. I love
John Corcoran 37:14
the focus on your broader mission and the importance of it to society as a whole. I want to wrap things up. Last question, big fan of gratitude. If you look back on your career, your journey so far, who are the peers, the contemporaries, maybe the mentors, who you would just want to shout out publicly? And thank them for helping you along the way?
Avi Staiman 37:35
Yeah, so going back to the beginning of the business, there are two folks who I would say, kind of inspired me just to be just have the guts to open a business. And I imagined, you know, that most of the folks listening here don’t don’t have that problem. But for me, it was like, you know, do I really want to go off on my own as opposed to getting, you know, getting a fixed salary? Do I really want to take that risk? So one of those individuals as a childhood friend, his name is Abby Goldberg, but I really, I credit him in the sense of he was, you know, an entrepreneur that I kind of looked up to, in a totally different fields, you know, he just property management, but kind of took nothing, and turned it into a multimillion dollar business. And I was like, oh, you know, like, We’re childhood buddies. Like, if he could do it, and he’s really talented, but like, all right, I could do it. Like, you know, it’s not, it’s not rocket science. And then specifically, you know, in the translation industry, another colleague and friend of mine, Sarah Dray, started her she was a lawyer, you know, and, and was an intern at a law firm, and they kind of would dump all the translations on her because she was bilingual. And she kept and she kept on turning around and seeing how much they were charging for these things. And she’s like, Screw being a lawyer, I’m gonna do this translation thing for lawyers and like, make money off of it. And that was what kind of gave me the inspiration and thought process to kind of think about well, okay, she can do that in that field. Well, I like research, I like, you know, I’ve kind of got the intellectual curiosity side to me, maybe I could make this a go in, you know, a different industry. So that kind of gave me that initial, um, you know, Boon. But last person, I want to, I want to credit, and again, you know, these are folks that are close to me in personal life, but I think like, you know, just business wise, my father in law, and to me fine, who’s a, you know, a practicing lawyer than, you know, a big firm in m&a law, but just his, his knowledge and savvy and knack for, you know, just kind of business intuition, I would call it and helping me in, in all sorts of moments really just dropping at, you know, dropping everything else that he’s got going on, as soon as I have a call, or I have a question. You know, despite the fact that the contracts that he’s working on are worth many multiples of, you know, of my business, but to have the humility to kind of turn around and be like, listen, like, you know, I want to help you and I want to share with you, you know, we’re family and that’s that they know that that’s where it starts, but I think just having that person to to know Uh, you know, kind of has your back but also can critique, you know, and I love that like, you know, not just kind of pat me on the back and say, oh, yeah, you’re doing great. And sometimes you need those folks in your life, you know, you know, you need those folks are kind of gonna, you know, pat you on the back. But sometimes you need those folks who are like, well, you’re thinking about it this way. Have you considered this angle, you know, and that that can be really, really helpful? You know, so yeah,
John Corcoran 40:24
this has been great. Where can people go to learn more about you and connect with you and reach out if they have any questions? Yeah. With
Avi Staiman 40:31
pleasure. So first of all, I’m active on LinkedIn, obvious, Damon, Avi, Staiman. So feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn. Our company, you know, the company Twitter handle is at ALE Translation. So you’re welcome to check in there. You know, you’re also welcome. You know, especially the folks that are listening here. Anyone who wants to reach out, you know, via email, you can also shoot me an email. It’s Avi, that’s Avi ACLang, which is short for academic language. So that’s at AC, l a n g.com. So [email protected]. Yeah. And happy to communicate in any of those ways. I’ll be heading off, you know, next month to the Frankfurt Book Fair, which is the largest book fair in the world. happens once a year in Frankfurt, Germany, if anyone you know, kind of is in the publishing industry and the research industry, you know, we’re kind of at that crossroads between publishing, you know, research language, so anyone at any of those industries, always happy to connect and you know, kind of network. And, you know, I see it as a win win. So, feel free to reach out. Great, Avi.
John Corcoran 41:43
Thanks so much. Yeah, brilliant.
Avi Staiman 41:45
Thanks so much, John. I really appreciate you having me on.
Outro 41:47
Thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast with John Corcoran. Find out more at smartbusinessrevolution.com. And while you’re there, sign up for our email list and join the revolution. And be listening for the next episode of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast.