G. Steven Cleere | Food Startup Innovation and Food Supply Chain Disruptions in the Age of COVID-19

Steven Cleere is the Founder and Chief Brand Developer of Nexxt Level Brands. For over 30 years, he’s been actively involved in marketing, advertising, and promotion disciplines, and in 2014, he founded NexxtLevel Brands, a consulting group aimed at helping small and medium-sized businesses to scale and to grow especially those in the food and CPG areas. He has helped by introducing new systems such as Revel Systems to these entrepreneurs.

Steve previously worked as Co-founder and Managing Partner at Trade Marketing Inc., aka TMI Group, which is a retail marketing agency. He’s also worked in grocery, drug, mass and specialty real retailing, software development, promotion evaluation, and key account profitability. In 2019, Steven and his wife, Deborah, combined their backgrounds and created Kitchen2Shelf, which is an educational service that provides online courses and in-person workshops for food and beverage entrepreneurs at all stages of growth.

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Here’s a Glimpse of What You’ll Learn:

  • How having a podcast has impacted G. Steven Cleere and his business
  • Steve talks about COVID-19 and what his clients have been doing to survive
  • Why some companies are thriving in e-commerce while others are scrambling to get into the industry
  • The future of grocery delivery services and how the attitudes of e-commerce sellers towards Walmart have changed
  • Steve’s thoughts on the growth of the ‘fake meat’ market segment and the growing trend of innovations in the food industry
  • How food consumption rates in the US have changed in light of COVID-19
  • The motivation behind Kitchen2Shelf and how Steve helps food startups innovate
  • The people G. Steven Cleere acknowledges for his achievements

Resources Mentioned:

Sponsor: Rise25

Today’s episode is sponsored by Rise25 Media, where our mission is to connect you with your best referral partners, clients, and strategic partners. We do this through our done for you podcast solution and content marketing. 

Along with my business partner Dr. Jeremy Weisz, we have over 18 years of experience with B2B podcasting, which is one of the best things you can do for your business and you personally. 

If you do it right, a podcast is like a “Swiss Army Knife” – it is a tool that accomplishes many things at once. It can and will lead to great ROI, great clients, referrals, strategic partnerships, and more. It is networking and business development; and it is personal and professional development which doubles as content marketing

A podcast is the highest and best use of your time and will save you time by connecting you to higher caliber people to uplevel your network. 

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Episode Transcript

Intro  0:10  

Welcome to the Smart Business Revolution podcast where we ask today’s most successful entrepreneurs to share the tools and strategies they use to build relationships and connections to grow their revenue. Now, your host for the revolution. John Corcoran.


John Corcoran  0:40  

All right. Welcome, everybody. John Corcoran here. I’m the host of the Smart Business Revolution podcast where I talk with CEOs, founders, entrepreneurs, authors, speakers, and many you know founders and CEOs of companies and organizations like YPO, EO, Activision Blizzard, Lending tree, Opentable x software and many more. I’m also the co-founder of Rise25 where we helped connect b2b business owners to their ideal prospects. 

And today I’ve got a great guest. It’s my friend G. Steven Cleere, the Chief Brand Developer in Nexxt Level Brands. He helps extensively food and consumer packaged goods companies. And for over 30 years he’s been actively involved in marketing, advertising and promotion disciplines. In 2014, he founded Nexxt Level Brands, which is a consulting group aimed at helping small and medium sized businesses to scale and to grow, especially those working as I said in the food and CPG areas. 


He previously worked as Co-founder and Managing Partner at Trade Marketing Inc, aka TMI Group, which is a retail marketing agency. He’s worked in grocery, drug mass and specialty real retailing, including software development, promotion evaluation, key account profitability, and all those different areas. And so we’re going to be talking extensively about what’s going on in the food supply chain and what’s happening with food makers and manufacturers. Finally, in 2019, Steven and his wife Deborah combined their backgrounds and created Kitchen2Shelf, which is an educational service that provides online courses and in person workshops for food and beverage entrepreneurs at all stages of growth. 


But first, before we get into this whole discussion here, you know, I wanted to let you know that this episode is brought to you by Rise25 Media, which is my company that I Co-founded with my business partner, Dr. Jeremy Weisz. We help b2b businesses to get clients referrals and strategic partnerships and an ROI with done for you podcasts and content marketing. If you’re listening to this, and you listen to podcasts from time to time, have you ever thought, should I do a podcast? Well, we absolutely say wholeheartedly. Yes. I’ve been doing it for 10 years. One of the best things I’ve ever done. And Steve, you know, we’ve helped you with your podcast, and you are a podcaster. Talk a little bit about you know what impact it’s had for you doing the podcast. 


Steven Cleere  2:53  

Yeah, actually. So I started podcasts last summer and a weekly show the Nexxt Level Brands podcast. And basically the idea was to reach out to people within the CPG industry large or small, but particularly to talk to founders who’d had some success and whatever else. Well, first of all, number one, it’s been like the most fun you can possibly imagine. That’s the first thing. It’s been absolutely great. And secondly is I’ve learned so much from doing the shows myself. It’s been full of education. And third for relationships and stuff with people it’s been, I don’t think I could find a better tool or a better use of time. Not only great relationships, but I have two people who became clients and two more people that we’re talking to right now about working together. none of whom would have happened without them being on the podcast. That’s excellent.


John Corcoran  3:50  

I love to hear that love to hear that. It’s so gratifying and you know, personally I’ve been to people’s weddings, who I connected with through podcasts I’ve been on vacation together has So many great meals. And so there’s so many great relationships that really come out of it and I’m really glad to hear that. So anyways, if you’re listening to this if you listen to podcasts from time to time, if you’re curious about it, give us a call or shoot us an email at [email protected] All right, Steve. So I do want to dive into your background. 


We can talk some more about the podcast as well, but I do want to dive into your background. But I want to start because we’re recording this in the beginning of May 2020. The Coronavirus pandemic is still underway. There’s talk of it less lightening up and people you know, being able to move about a little bit more freely again. But top of mind for everyone has been our food supply chain. And food companies are one of the few companies that are really essential for the most part because we can’t live without food Of course. So what has the experience been like for the last couple months with you and your clients and you know what they’re doing to survive? You know, let’s start there.


Steven Cleere  5:03  

Okay. Well, certainly there has been a profound change in the consumer packaged goods industry. So there’s been a change in the fact of the way people buy stuff, what they can buy, what they decided to buy when they were going to start hoarding


John Corcoran  5:18  

the paper and


Steven Cleere  5:20  

write key weeks now. Now, toilet paper takes a bad rap. But the truth of the matter of toilet paper is in industry jargon. It cubes out too quickly, meaning it’s too bulky, right. It takes up too much room. It doesn’t have much profit involved Pac 12 toilet paper pennies, right? Nobody keeps this stuff. Your store doesn’t keep it in the back room. That takes up too much space. Yeah, right. Even the manufacturer, basically just in time, so as soon as we got hit was like you would walk into the store. And the two things that were gone were there was no toilet paper and there was no Top Ramen. But there were stacks of baby back ribs in every cooler in the store. 


So it’s taken a while to kind of get that around. And now we’ve obviously had supply chain hits. So the Meatpacking plants and whenever and that’s affected pork to a certain extent chicken probably going to affect beef pretty shortly. But it’s people say, Oh, well the supply chain is broken Well, it’s not really broken. It’s just under a lot of stress. First of all, because consumers can’t figure out what they want to buy from week to week. And when they do they buy 10 instead of one, and so that the supply chain wasn’t built around that supply chain built around efficiency. 


And that means getting the right amount of stuff to the right amount of places and that’s it so we’ve confused the heck out of it. For the manufacturer side. Wow. It just depends on the business. You’re in John. So the manufacturing side if you are if you’re campbell soup, oh my goodness, what a quarter you had, you know, absolutely. If you’re an air freshener No, no Lysol. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I don’t know whatever coffee filters, maybe coffee filters, no. Okay. But it’s just that thing of where you are in the spectrum of what people are buying. And it’s been absolutely crazy as for clients that I work with, the divide has been swift and that is those who are well developed in e-commerce for the most part are thriving and going crazy. And those who were relying 100% on retail or on local sales, whatever, are struggling or some even on hiatus at this point, they’re just going to wait until the smoke clears.


John Corcoran  7:34  

Wow, that’s amazing to think that some food makers are on hiatus because the perception is that that’s one of the industries that has continued going.


Steven Cleere  7:43  

Yeah, in the spectrum of, you know, food ranges, everything from you know, $20 a pound chocolate, you know, down to, you know, private label cereal and private label zero is doing really well. Chocolate not so much but they’re both in the Fitbit.


John Corcoran  8:01  

So what are the companies that he mentioned ecommerce and e-commerce? There’s been, you know, a big movement in the industry for CPG companies to move into e-commerce, but some have dragged their feet. And so you mentioned that, you know, some companies are thriving when they’ve embraced e commerce. Others are some scrambling to get into the industry now or to get into e-commerce. And is it even possible to pivot on a dime and do that?


Steven Cleere  8:27  

Right, so one of the things that’s changed a little bit in the last four weeks, five weeks was Yes, initially, Amazon in particular, because that’s the big big guy in the ring. I shut off any new types of products, period, then they started opening up a little bit to products that are considered which most of the food stuff is you and I might not consider it essential, but they can’t draw those lines. So they just say, okay, ketchup, new ketchup, great, that’s fine, that’s essential. And so they have opened As a matter of fact, they’ve opened up to, I think, become more efficient at the process of vetting companies that want to be on Amazon, to the point where they’re doing like video presentations now instead of more lengthy form stuff. And that’s going to have an effect. So you can get on. I have actually had a client who got on within the last two weeks. But it was a scramble because they weren’t prepared for packaging. You know, those kinds of things? what was going to happen? Were they going to fulfill it themselves? Were they going to fulfill it on Amazon? How is that all going to work? So it’s definitely been a challenge, but those who are already in and had products that were non perishable, in particular, started doing business equivalent to Black Friday sales, like about March 12. And really, it hasn’t led off yet, which is probably the one of the more profound changes in the industry is that people have people who never bought food online. have purchased food online now, those that were already purchasing food online are, you know, ramping ramping up their purchases. 


And those people who never bought anything online are also coming in. So Amazon had the best Prime membership run in March that they’ve ever had. I mean, just people signing up for prime. So that’s probably not going to go back. First of all, if your product is not widely available in retail, but it is online, that consumer walks when they go back into the store on a regular basis, your products not going to be there, they’re going to continue to buy it online. We’ve also gotten used to getting used to the convenience you know, so it’s, you know, I don’t. I don’t think that we’re going to buy fresh carrots and celery or ground beef anytime soon. Although maybe who knows. But certainly anything that is a brand, anything that comes in a box or a package. It’s the same in the store as it is within the Amazon truck, so it doesn’t make any difference. Right, right.


John Corcoran  11:02  

And, you know, grocery delivery services like you know, instacart and Safeway has their own and Amazon, of course, have been growing in popularity and in recent years and and you think that this is going to be a leap forward where everyone’s going to be, you know, doing grocery delivery from now on, or do you think there’ll be some retraction?


Steven Cleere  11:27  

I, you know, my best guess is there’ll be a slight retraction because I think, you know, there is a lot of panic reaction still going on. But when it settles down to whatever the new normal is, I think those players that are doing delivery are going to be very well placed. I think the other aspect of the business is what we call click and collect, which is you buy online, for instance, at Walmart, and then you know, at four o’clock in the afternoon, you drive down into the parking lot, they come out and they load back your car. So not only is that really easy, but I think that You know, that has really started to grow and now I think it’s gonna, you know, everybody Kroger Albertsons, everyone’s going to be doing that it’s gonna be a major part of their business. Yeah, but those guys who have ecommerce arms so walmart.com, Kroger, calm albertsons.com a tremendous amount of effort is going to go into solidifying those businesses based on what consumers are showing that they’re going to do which is shop online for food.


John Corcoran  12:25  

Yeah, yeah. We have a fun one that we’ve been participating in in perfect foods. It was originally called imperfect produce, which I’m sure you’re familiar with because it’s originally a bay area company. We did it about three or four years ago. Then stop doing it and now with like the limited availability over the last few weeks in the San Francisco Bay Area of grocery delivery options Safeway was taking weeks to get delivery. Same with Whole Foods. We went back to it and we love it. They do a once a week delivery, huge box of food, some good deals because they’re Miss shape. In apples, but they’re perfectly, you know, good, that sort of thing. So that’s an interesting option that we’ve enjoyed.


Steven Cleere  13:06  

Yeah, there’s all kinds of you know, and there’s also people like thrive that do organic. There’s the box, people that do large quantities and they just got, you know, hit like crazy. There’s a whole bunch of others in between. And I think all of those are going to do well, I don’t think any of them are going to match. Amazon. I mean, certainly. But what’s going to be interesting from an industry observer point of view is, is that Walmart is very, very serious about walmart.com becoming a player to Amazon. And they have maybe not quite as deep a product pocket is is Amazon does, but they sure have money to spend, and they’re going to try to find out what can we do that Amazon can’t do And right now, the one thing they can do is they can tie in the physical stores easier to ecommerce, then Amazon can to Whole Foods because there’s there’s a lot more wholefoods, and they aren’t necessarily in all the places where Walmart shoppers are. So I think that’s going to be a big deal. And I tell my clients, you know, if you’re on both platforms there’s a lot of my clients are. This is like a battle between two elephants, and we’re a little ants running around on the ground. We just don’t want to get stepped out of the way, let them do what they’re gonna do. Be nice to everybody.


John Corcoran  14:24  

It has been interesting, though, because I know a lot of e-commerce brands and sellers are in e-commerce. A lot of their attitude in the last few years has been like I’m crushing it on Amazon. Why should I bother with Walmart? Because Walmart is such a in terms of e commerce is such a small piece of the market. Do you feel that those attitudes are changing?


Steven Cleere  14:46  

I think so. I think that the two things you have to uphill battles with Walmart one way is do I want to be on an e-commerce platform that doesn’t represent as great a potential as Amazon does. And that’s fair. That’s a fair shot. Secondly is a number of people that are in those more upscale brands, whatever else, they don’t really know if they want to be in Walmart or not. And I try to understand when people say, you know, but I don’t agree with that at all. Because first of all, it walmart.com is not Walmart, the store. And you should be pretty much if you’re a manufacturer, pretty much agnostic about where people buy your product. So if Walmart wants to sell my product on Walmart, calm, I’m more than happy. And I tell my clients, you want to be there because they’re going to spend money and they’re going to spend money promoting, right, the business and the products that are on it. And if you’re unique, you’re going to be one of the ones that gets promoted. They don’t need to promote, you know, frozen potatoes, because they know everybody knows what they are. But if they can point to things, I think it’s an opportunity that a lot of people are going to miss just like they missed Amazon. Yeah, but I would be there Unless I had a really brand strategy thing that told me, no, you don’t be associated with Walmart,


John Corcoran  16:06  

right? Speaking of unique products that have emerged in recent years, the fake meat industry beyond burger, then you know, impossible. What are your thoughts on that emerging trend?


Steven Cleere  16:19  

Um, so the whole fake meat kind of has two sides to it, and it’s in sorry, I don’t want anybody to take offense if you’re a producer of cellular based or plant based meats.


John Corcoran  16:30  

I guess it’s kind of a, it’s probably not the preferred term, but the first one that came to mind. Yeah,


Steven Cleere  16:37  

yeah. So you have basically you have plant based and then you have cellular which is made from, you know, organic, mammal material, right. It’s made from cows. Okay, cellular and then it’s grown. That’s a whole kind of like, yeah, that’s right.


John Corcoran  16:54  

Right, right. Yeah, I guess I was referring more to plant based meats, which actually I love. I’ve tried it. A number of them, it’s been fascinating to try them. It’s amazing the texture and how much progress they’ve made, how different they are from, you know, the garden burgers of 15 years ago, and absolutely great job.


Steven Cleere  17:11  

So I think the face that they’re now COVID notwithstanding for a minute, the face they were in prior to COVID was what we call a discovery phase, which was, you know, everybody was trying to get them on their menus, if you were fast food restaurant, everybody was trying to get them into stores, production could not come close to demand, right. So the good thing that kind of happened with them is is that this thing hit, it basically is going to allow them to ramp production up to meet whatever the demand is going to be and the fact that coming out of this, I think a lot more consumers are going to have an increased health outlook toward what they eat, whether that’s functional nutraceutical, whatever, whatever it is, but I think you know, you have kids, right and i think Your heightened awareness of germs of diseases. Yeah, health in general is going to increase that will translate down. So where they might go at this point is going to be they will represent a significant portion of a, you know, weekly meal, you know, just said, you know, whether that’s you go in and get one for lunch or whether actually, if eating the entire family? I don’t know. But I think that’s, that’s where that’s going to go. But I’m not sure that the valuations currently placed on a number of the players are going to be consistent with what that percentage is, when it’s done. I think it’s going to be there. But you know, so I suspect that a number of the current players that are out there, they’re independent, will be purchased by Tyson, other meat producers, whatever, who will say okay, this is in the portfolio, people are going to do it, we’ve we’ve, we’ve made our own, it’s not selling so well. So we’ll go out we’ll buy,


John Corcoran  18:58  

You know, for the same reasons That Coke and Pepsi start selling what bottled water is needed to diversify, as the market goes so far away from their core product that they’re kind of losing out on a piece of the business. Yet now you’ve been really involved in food incubators and food startups. It’s funny because food is one of those industries that you wouldn’t think that there’s a lot of innovation happening. But you know, as we mentioned, with plant based meats, and all kinds that there’s constant innovation, constantly new products, new companies coming along. What are some of the trends you have your eye on? What are some of the exciting new markets that you know that innovative food startups are involved in?


Steven Cleere  19:42  

Well, across the board, there has been a growing trend for what we call NOSH, which is Natural, Organic, Specialty, Healthy foods. That’s really been the trend and most of the stuff whether that’s plant based meats or plant based milks, or anything else is coming out of that sector. Now, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other sectors. Very, very high end, single origin chocolates. What’s a single origin chocolate, it’s a bean that’s only grown in New Guinea. Just like high end wine. It’s the terroir of the coffee bean, or the chocolate bean. So that cow. So, that’s the other end of the scale. But there’s still that innovation going on. And I think functional foods and food as medicine is really going to be the next area. From a taste standpoint, we continue to go global with tastes, and in so very obscure berries and other things from Africa and South America, that are used in recipes to give distinctive flavor are on the foodie side of it are the big things that are coming up. And that’s just going to continue because there’s tales behind all of those about the origin of the plant, the God of whatever created it. It’s all this wonderful story. stuff and it’s not cinnamon or not made so this is great.


John Corcoran  21:03  

So that’s how I felt when I discovered SAE, which is grown mostly in the Amazon rainforest and really popular with, you know, I say evils and, and shakes and things like that. And I was like, Wow, it’s like, how often do you discover a new berry, a new fruit? Not very often, right?


Steven Cleere  21:24  

Nope. And yet, they’re out there and they’re being, you know, and they’re being cultivated. And, you know, because now you have a wider range of stuff. Now, you know, for most people that are, you know, looking at food consumption. When before we went into the storm, the crisis, Americans generally were running about 50% of food consumed outside the home. 50% you know,


John Corcoran  21:49  

wow, that’s a major change


Steven Cleere  21:52  

that got smacked. So that’s probably 85% in home now and 15% outside. Yeah, the best thing Stuff that research I’ve looked into is that’s probably not going back to 5050 anytime soon. As a matter of fact, probably food service restaurants will be lucky to get back to 20% to maybe 30. But 50 is not going to happen for a long time within the new normal,


John Corcoran  22:20  

and is that because of our new attitudes, attitudes towards social distancing? Or is it positive? Or is it because the economy also has gone down, fewer people have disposable income?


Steven Cleere  22:31  

All those are small, we’ve broken habits. That’s the first thing right? And we’ve been in this long enough, six weeks, eight weeks now for some of us that you have new habits. Secondly, Americans despite the fact they’re unemployed, and in droves are also saving money. A lot of people for the first time ever they’re not spending as much money because they’re not eating out. It’s one of the reasons. They’re cheaper to eat home. This pandemic may save the meal kit industry, the kits that You go in and buy and write or write delivered by hellofresh. And that’s a whole nother discussion, because there’s a lot of companies that got into that. 


And then companies that failed and yeah, yeah, they are skyrocketing news guys, right? Especially the stuff that you see in the store and buy because people just wait, it’s already there. I don’t have to worry about it. I don’t really know how to cook. So I’m just going to go ahead and prepare this stuff so that they’re not going back to those old habits anytime soon. Social distancing. We’ve got a second round of flu season coming in 2020. Who should arrive late September knows, what we do know is and again, best, you know, best research I’ve done is normal. What we’ve used to remember as normal is probably somewhere in 2023. Because the first thing we need is we need to have a readily available vaccine.


 And the key to that is the first two words readily available, until we have a really we’ll have a vaccine in a year but It’s not going to be ready available, so it won’t, it won’t change. And when the second wave comes, as it did with the Spanish flu, the second wave comes how we react to that it’s going to determine a lot of whether or not we can trample it down for once and for all or whether it’s going to, you know, go on for another year possible. So if it follows SARS and some of the other stuff, it will, of course, eventually work out, we’ll get into it.


John Corcoran  24:25  

Right, right. Industry, we’re running a little low on time, but I do want to ask you about kitchen to shelf and this relates to, you know, our social distancing, and things moving more online, you’ve created more of an online course. Talk a little bit about the motivation behind that. And how do you teach, you know, food startups to innovate from a distance using an online course?


Steven Cleere  24:52  

Well, so the basic idea was, when I started working with startups, that there were far more people who were interested in getting into the business and had innovative products, great ideas and great recipes, then I had time to be able to work with them. It just wasn’t. So what was the alternative? The alternative, my wife, being an educator and trainer is she said, let’s do courses. And so we started out by doing workshops on a local basis. And then that led to the online course to be able to reach even more people. But there still is a tremendous pent up demand out there in food and beverage and to a certain extent in natural health and beauty aids as well supplements and natural, you know, cosmetics, those kinds of things. 


But these are all people who want to succeed in an industry that is years old, pretty staid, and basically built not on the love of food or, but built on efficiency. And as a result, their standard industry practices that you kind of have to go through and what I found was that a number of the people I’m working with, they’re all going through the same things. I’m having the same conversations over and over again about what your case side’s case side needs to be, how do you pay a distributor? What are slotting funds, all of those things. And so the idea was to say, let’s put this into a course. And we did a pilot, first pilot last year. And then we created a second one. 


And we’re actually right now almost, we’re in the sweetening phase of production, as they call it, of the online course that we piloted last year. So kitchen shelf was basically if you want to learn about the business, whether you have an idea, or whether you’re selling at a farmers market, or maybe even have some local, maybe you’re on Amazon, but you really want to be in Kroger or Albertsons or Safeway, then the course is available and it will save you thousands of dollars. So it’s kitchen to shelf that’s to kitchen, the letter, the number two shelf calm, and you can go onto the website and get more information there.


John Corcoran  26:52  

Oh, this has been great, Steve, thanks so much for doing this. I want to wrap things up but the question I always ask which is let’s pretend we’re at an awards banquet. Just like the Oscars and the Emmys, and you’re receiving an award for lifetime achievement for everything that you’ve done up until this point. And what we all want to know is who do you think, you know, in addition to family and friends, of course, you know, who are the mentors? Who are the friends or the business partners? Who are the people that you acknowledge?


Steven Cleere  27:14  

So of course, always my wife first because that’s, that’s gonna be firstly, but it’s also true because she’s in business with me. And she’s been a great help and a supporter of all the crazy stuff that I want to do. My ex partner at trademark Incorporated, Frank Solsbury was, you know, we had a business together for 22 years. And, you know, a marriage, if you will, of ideas and different strengths and whatever and could not have done without Frank and he’s retired now, and that’s absolutely great. And as very important, and then a lot of my clients from that period of time, became friends, still our friends, all very valuable relationships with those people and it’s one of the things I was actually talking to a student at Cal Poly yesterday. And one of the things I said is you have to bear this is a big industry, but it’s a really small circle of people. So, my friend Jeff Freeman at man packing, Jeff and I have known each other for 20 plus years, I have worked with Jeff I counted the other day at seven different companies. So, uh, and you know, and the point is, is basically it’s networking and you think it’s huge, it is a huge industry but they’ve been very supportive whatever. What I want to do now is I want to give back to those people who are starting and who are in those businesses and want to make a difference in food and beverage going forward.


John Corcoran  28:38  

That’s great. I love that well nexxtlevelmarketing.com with two ‘x’s, the Nexxt Level Brands Podcast again, look forward to any of your podcast players with two ‘’x’s, and also kitchen2shelf.com. Steve, where else can people learn more about you and connect with you? LInkedin?


Steve Cleere

Absolutely yeah, my profile LinkedIn is always available and then nextlevelmarketing.com we’ll get to my email, [email protected] or [email protected] We’ll get you there and find out all you need to know. 


John Corcoran

All right, great. Thanks so much, Steve.


Intro  29:17 

Thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution podcast with John Corcoran. Find out more at smartbusinessrevolution.com And while you’re there, sign up for our email list and join the Revolution. And be listening for the next episode of the Smart Business Revolution podcast.