Andrew Warner 11:59
No, I did not do that. I actually like Tim Ferriss a lot. I don’t love the idea of summarizing a bunch of people’s ideas into a book, I thought about doing that it never felt comfortable to me. What I did instead was say, I’ve led these conversations. What is it that helped me get people to be more open? Why is it that after doing interviews, I will routinely have guests call me up or email me the way that I did last week. From guests who said, Andrew, I don’t think you should publish it. I reveal too much. We caught too much into this. Why is it that we end up having these kinds of conversations, there’s something that I’m doing and it’s intentional. It’s not like I’m randomly a nice guy and like to have conversations with people and we randomly end up in these, these open topics. I’m doing something and it’s in a systemized and I’ve been documenting it internally. So I might as well share that. And that’s intentionally what I decided to focus on how to boy I’m talking quickly on how to use these techniques that I’ve used to guide conversations. How those techniques are used, I thought was much more interesting, then let me sum up what I learned in these interviews.
John Corcoran 12:59
Alright, I’m going to preface this next question by saying I’m a recovering people pleaser, and I generally try to please people at all times, but I know how much you detest that and you’d like more confrontation. And we’ve hung out you know, in person and I love the way you guide conversations. You even if you didn’t have a podcast, you probably would be at a dinner party, guiding and conversation trying to get to the raw truth. Let me ask you, you’ve been doing this a long time. A lot of people have come along. There’s the Joe Rogan’s the world, there’s the Tim Ferriss who didn’t have a podcast when you had a podcast, and they’re doing great. Is there part of you that feels a bit jealous? Do you feel a little bit like Jesus, I’ve been doing this all this time. And there are these other people that come along these flash in the pan, someone was on a reality TV show, and all sudden they have a massive podcast. Barack Obama has a body and all these people
Andrew Warner 13:49
are jealous. I don’t feel jealous. I like this type of question. I don’t feel jealous. I feel that I am definitely not done enough that as much as I was working hard. I think that I didn’t. I must have made some mistakes. And I think taking some space back to figure out what that was is helpful. But your I don’t feel jealous of them. But I feel disappointed in myself that I didn’t go bigger that why didn’t I get to have a bigger audience a bigger name a bigger reputation? I’m definitely well known in the startup space.
John Corcoran 14:17
Why isn’t Spotify buying your show?
Andrew Warner 14:21
Yeah, or at least offering it? Yeah, that’s definitely an issue. Absolutely. And I think about that. Yeah.
John Corcoran 14:28
Yeah. What about I’m most curious about this, you know, I’ve had debates with Jordan Harbinger. You know, we’ve had debates about this. And, you know, my my goal, because I came from practicing law where people build a business and then they just shut off the lights after 25 years. They don’t have anything Built to Sell. And in the podcasting world, if you build a podcast business, it’s kind of built around a personality. I can’t, I can’t least now imagine Mixergy without Andrew Warner did that. ever hold you back? Because you’re a real business guy you sold a business previously? Did that ever hold you back? Or is that something that you don’t think about?
Andrew Warner 15:09
Well, I think I should have been clear about the two different parts of the business as I imagined it. The first part, which is the interviewing, I thought it should just be me, this is me getting to know other people, this is me, building my reputation. The second part was going to be Matt was was masterclasses where people were paying to get access to these courses led by entrepreneurs, like the founder of Twitch who came on to teach a class, I should have turned that into its own brand, instead of putting it under the mixer to name because then I think it would have been an easier transition away from me to have other people lead it. And it would have stood on its own a lot better. And I think that that was a challenge. I thought that by putting it on the Mixergy brand, I’d be able to feed off the Mixergy name and then get more people into it and then eventually just have the podcast kind of slip into the background, the way on most corporate websites, the blog becomes a background thing. And the main feature is something else that takes all the attention away. Now, this is a way that I always think I was actually talking to will Schroeder about this. And he says Andrew, as far as I’ve known you, you’ve always been down on yourself. I’m really not I’m very happy go lucky person. What I don’t have is the thing that I heard from the founder of me we this is a guy who built a social network. That’s the anti Facebook, they don’t know ads, right? They don’t tell you did. I told them dude, you started this company years ago, it was social networking. It failed. Why didn’t you feel like a failure? And he’s laughing at me almost for saying that. He goes, Why would I see myself as a fail? I said, obviously in black and white, the company failed, right? But I learned so much. And look at how far I got. And most people don’t start businesses. I think there are people who have different personalities. When it comes to me analyzing my business, analyzing my work. I’m always hard on it. I think other people would say Mixergy produced all this money Mixergy produce this big reputation had the impact that you wanted at this stage in your life, right? You had I started a business before that I sold that was the part of me that I was aiming for money here was the part where I was aiming for more influence, you did that. So a lot of other people would be much more charitable, not charitable about it. But go this is amazing. I don’t have that in me. I definitely am a person who when millions were coming in a month I’d go Why not more? This is this is why we’re making a mistake of not getting even bigger. So I’m telling you that this is my personal hard analysis of Mixergy. But I’m also saying that it’s me that is just hard on my analysis of everything that I do professionally. Hmm.
John Corcoran 17:41
I’ve talked to people who said, Oh, I wouldn’t go on Mixergy. If I was asked, they shouldn’t
Andrew Warner 17:47
they shouldn’t you know we’re having right now with this whole podcast world is people who have nothing going on for themselves who if you just go, they fall apart because they haven’t done Jack who believe that they need to be internet famous, who believe that they need to be influencers or think fu answers are some BS. And we all know that their wastes have nothing, they should be spending more time working and less time promoting the nonsense that they didn’t do. And so when they come to Mixergy, and I push back on them, they have no backbone because they didn’t do anything to support them. And so I can easily break them down. And absolutely, they should stay away from me. And they should go do some other BS podcast and let themselves feel very proud of that. But if they’re ready to come on to Mixergy, they should understand that there’s a very good chance that I will call up somebody who that they who they say they work with and ask them about
John Corcoran 18:36
them. It was but there has to be in the context of what we’re talking about here with the business of Mixergy. There has to be a part of you that maybe because you you I don’t want to say second guessed, but you net, you analyze a lot. You analyze others, you analyze yourself, there has to be a part of you that thinks like cheese, you know, if I didn’t have a reputation for asking this question as hard questions as I do, maybe that maybe that piece is what could have held it back?
Andrew Warner 19:06
No, there’s no part of me that thinks that because I asked hard questions. And I’m challenging my guests that the business was held back. If anything the business grows, because of that. It gives me credibility. It gives the audience trust, and frankly, makes it more interesting that I push back and the people who matter, the audience, the right entrepreneurs, they love it. They love it.
John Corcoran 19:29
They love it, but there are some who are intimidated by it. So that I mean for people in the startup world going on Mixergy but you know, it’s like going on 60 minutes, in some ways, right? I mean, you know, you’re going to be even harder.
Andrew Warner 19:41
I think it should be I don’t the fact that they’re not showing up is not keeping me from doing interviews. I have to email my assistants and say I get it that we don’t have enough interview slots. I’m not gonna I can’t add any more to my day. We definitely have more people asked me to be on than we could ever ever accommodate. And if I just put out another We tomorrow saying I’m looking for left handed amputees who will do an interview with me, I bet you that I could fill up a week or more of interviews with that. It’s it’s an amazing thing that comes from being hard on guests and also being sincere. I’m not looking to just be rough with people for the sake of being rough. But I’m looking to understand how did you get there? Why did you do it? I want to understand if I’m talking to someone, like I talked to Kenny, today, I want to understand why did you sell your company? I want to understand what did you do with your money? I want to understand how did you get your customers I want understand about the mistake he made, I want to understand it because I’m not looking to challenge them and go you got nothing there. Because I’m trying to learn it. I’m trying to do something with it. Years ago, I used to sell sandwiches door to door in in like the rough neighborhoods of New York because my dad used to manufacture women’s clothing in New York. And he would be he would have all these relationships with stores that he sold to. And so he said, Oh, sell them sandwiches, they can’t eat the garbage that they sell in these in these. In these tougher neighborhoods, like 75 cent pizza, it’s going to give you a stomachache, literally to go sell sandwiches. So I sold sandwiches to the store owners door to door and I would often have to wait while they sold. And I remember one time being at a TV electronics store waiting for this guy. And then this we work so loud, they’re loud people bring their dogs. I don’t know if you heard that on mic a little bit. So this guy, he’s talking to a customer and I just stood there like I always do. And then when the customer left, I said I’m sorry, I hope I didn’t keep you from closing that sale of the TV goes. He wasn’t gonna buy a house, you know. And the salesman behind the counter said everything I told him about the TV, he just nodded and smiled about and he said, Oh, that’s good. And then he asked me more questions, say that’s good. And I said, Well, isn’t that an indication that they’re gonna buy? Because they say everything is good. You’re actually like you’re hitting the mark. And he said, No, he said, people who actually want to buy these TVs, when we ask questions, when they ask questions, they ask hard questions, and they challenge us on everything because they’re going to live with this. People aren’t going to buy never going to live with it. And so they don’t ask the challenging questions. They don’t care. And so same thing for me with interviews. I’m not looking to just entertain myself. I’m asking the hard questions, because I’m gonna live with these ideas. If Kenny’s interesting and opened my eyes to Alabama real estate, then I’m gonna do it. Probably not Alabama real estate. But I’m here in Austin, Texas. I’ve been thinking about buying a place and renting it out if Kenny’s tell me that it’s that he’s doing it. I want to understand how much of a pain in the ass are the tenants? What is it that he has to put up with? How does he organize it and I care about and I’m beating it up? Because I’m going to have to live with it for the next 10 years. If I decide to follow those footsteps.
John Corcoran 22:32
Let me ask you this. I tell people all the time. Look, you’re probably not going to be a Joe Rogan, you’re not going to be Jordan Harbinger Yaqui Andrew Warner, you’re in many cases, you know, probably I would say 90% of the podcasts out there. They’re doing a podcast for other reasons, then they can’t expect to get a massive audience and in survive making income off of that audience alone. So do some of these things apply only to you and not to others? In other words, you know, I wouldn’t encourage you know, someone who’s doing a podcast in order to connect with referral partners and clients, I wouldn’t encourage them to ask as hard questions as you do, because they might ruin a relationship. Is that a fair criticism?
Andrew Warner 23:16
I think if you’re thinking about harder, easy questions, you’re already on the wrong track. I think what you need to do is say what do I really care about sincere questions is a better way to put it in a sincere question sometimes is hard. A sincere question is like you asked me earlier today about what to call the miscarriage that we had, right? You weren’t just looking to say, did you have a miscarriage? How did it go? You are sincerely interested in it, I think or maybe we’re just trying to touch on something personal to show that we have a personal connection. I don’t know what, what to how to explain the difference between hard and easy. I do know how to say sincere and sincere takes a lot of introspection and guts. And it’s takes a lot of guts to sit across from somebody and say, I’m not sure what to do next with my life, I see that you had a similar path, how did you figure it out? Right to say to yourself, This is what I’m really wrestling with. This is what I’m genuinely curious about the other person about and then to have the guts to do it is it’s a tough thing. And then then to do it in a in a way that gets results. The mean, a real conversation makes the other person feel like you care about them, lead them to a place where they could be open, because it’s hard for people who want to go to therapy to be open, right? So you’re now saying, I am open about what I need. Now I need to get you to be open about what you need. That’s two different complications. And that’s where the tactics that I put in the book come in. That’s where it took a lot of skill, a lot of trial and error to come up with techniques to get people to open up and so for example, one of the things that I say in the book book The reason I need the book, Stop Asking Questions is because I found that you will not get people to be open if all you do is ask question question question. The you’ll get question fatigue, they’re going to hate you or they’re going to see that you’re just a needy person and walk away. You need to ask and sometimes rephrase questions as directions to give them the confidence to tell you because if you keep asking Questions, you feel like an 85 year old? If you direct them, you look like somebody who should be in charge who’s taking them to a good place. So there are lots of different techniques. And if you have them, you could do it. Another one technique sorry, here’s here’s one that I’ve gotten in the book. A lot of times when we have harsh things to say harsh things to ask, we feel like alright, I know it’s harsh. I’m going to go and ask it because I’ve earned the right because we’re here in a conversation. And Andrew told me that I need to go and be sincere, and I don’t care how tough it is. But it could be off putting for the other person. So the question is, how do you do that? And I studied people like Mike Wallace, I had his whole interview transcribed with the Ayatollah Ayatollah Khomeini. This is after I told her comes into power by taking by kicking up the Shah. He then takes hostages from America, Mike Wallace, after seeing Americans held hostage by Ayatollah Khomeini goes into Iran. And then everyone says, He asks him, how are you so insane? Like, that’s the thing that people took away from it. I went back and I looked at the transcript, and he doesn’t say you’re insane, or why are you so insane? How are you insane? He goes, he says, To the Ayatollah, forgive me. President Sadam said, his words, not mine, that you’re a lunatic. What do you say to that? So now what he’s doing is he’s asking about, are you crazy? Is there some amount of crazy in your approach? And there are some leaders that would say, yeah, there’s a little bit of craziness in there. But others would just be so insulted. They close it off? By not directly saying, I think you’re crazy. Are you crazy, which would be an off putting thing to ask him by instead saying, Somebody else said, You’re crazy. How would you respond, he still gets the same response that he the response that he wants without turning the person off. And so I studied that, and I wrote about that in the book. And I use techniques like that, to have people open up in my podcast, to have people open up when we’re having dinner together and to have them open up when we’re having big, big conversations in private.
John Corcoran 26:55
Yeah, you mentioned a moment ago, the miscarriages and my wife and I also had trouble with each of our pregnancies, which is ironic. Now I’ve got four kids. And we were talking about that, you know, you said beforehand, you’d like it, if you had four kids. I’m not sure if you spent a weekend at my house. So you feel the same way. But, you know, how has that experience affected you? You know, because in many ways, you’ve accomplished a lot of things professionally, personally, you got a great you know, family now. How has that affected your even your your, your business decisions, like to write a book now?
Andrew Warner 27:34
The biggest challenge is how time consuming it is. So once we’re done here, I’m going to pack everything up. And I’m going to ride back over to our Airbnb and immediately race over to my kids school to take them over to a tutor because I want them to have extra education.
John Corcoran 27:51
Beyond is all our kids are behind because of the pandemic, right? Yeah, I
Andrew Warner 27:55
have to be honest with you, we were really lucky we we had our kids in school almost the whole time they were in our school when they were in San Francisco, whoa, Austin, there, the school is incredibly protective. So they can’t get close to their kids. They’re wearing masks. But they’ve been in school, luckily, for all but the first few months of the pandemic. But I’m kind of like anal about it, I feel like one of the things that I bring to my kids is, is more education, more of an appreciation for education, more of an appreciation for striving to do more education in education, where I think other people would would teach their kids to watch sports, I’ve never watched sports on my own, or maybe once, maybe I have at times, but I definitely don’t watch it with my kids. So I’m not bringing them that kind of determination to succeed, but just education, so. So that’s time consuming, dude. And I could just leave them in school until 530 Or six o’clock today. And instead, I’m going to race out of here at 230 in the afternoon to go pick them up. That’s a real time consuming thing. I find that kids at least at the ages that I have, are not difficult, they are time consuming. And so Oh, if they are time consuming, I want to enjoy it. And I want to enjoy it by doing things my way by randomly pulling over on the way home and being late. Because it was a Ford company put some Broncos in the middle of Austin, Texas in blood people go on these obstacle courses are gonna Yeah, I take my kids to that thing. Let’s go check that out on the way home. And by the way, when they said, Let’s we can’t let your kid in because he’s too young. That’s when things got exciting. For me. That’s when I said how can I find a way to let my kid who’s too small, get in here. And so I’ll be honest with you. The first jerky thing I did was I taught him how as soon as he walks next to the people to walk on his tiptoes. That was just like a like a thing that I was trying to do to get buy in the system. But that’s not my approach. My approach is who do I talk to? And all I did was talk to every single person I could at that at that thing until one of them said well, we don’t have a child seat for him even we can’t do it. I go, I’ll be right back with the child seat. I high fived her assume the clothes and went back and got the child car seat out of my car and I brought it over. But it’s all had a conversation and it’s it’s something that my kids know me for. They said you can talk to anybody. How do you do that we get we’re told that we can’t go into miniature golf because it COVID restrictions. I go and I talked to the person and then before long we end up going to miniature golf for free. How do you do it? Because it’s all about conversations and everything that I got to try over and over. I put my reps in, in these interviews is applicable in interviews, dinner conversation, and when you’re trying to get your kid into Bronk, yeah. They’re telling them to go on to.
John Corcoran 30:27
It’s funny, I say that, you know, you’re shaped by your parents, and my father was a journalist and professional interviewer. And yet the real interviewer in my family was my mother, my mom was a great questioner would just ask to ask questions that take interest in people. And my Tad, I love them. But the world’s worst negotiator. Like if he didn’t get his way, immediate anger was the only real response. And I didn’t even realize until I was older that there’s actually a lot of different responses you could have, like you did. They’re just like how problems solved how we’re going to find a solution, how I’m going to work with them carrots instead of sticks. It sounds like your father was in sales. What did you learn sales from him?
Andrew Warner 31:09
I’ve got, I think, because he was so outgoing and so dismissive of anyone who wasn’t outgoing. It was tough for me to learn to speak up. And his conversations I felt were pretty empty with his friends. It was like hanging out chatting, and just having fun, which doesn’t appeal to me. I don’t like empty conversations. I’ll have a ton of fun with people. But it can’t be empty conversations about about anything. I don’t care about what you watch on Netflix, I don’t care about any I don’t care about any of it. I care about the heart of what’s going on in your life. The other day, we were having conversation with someone about how she froze her eggs at right there kids, my kids were there. We’re talking about the whole thing. And I’m not going to talk to them about just how the weather is. And the difference between Austin and San Francisco. Screw that.
John Corcoran 31:57
Yeah. So and that’s it. We call that a you referred to a shoved fact. Is that a shove fact, when someone drops out into the conversation?
Andrew Warner 32:04
Yes, they definitely it was it was a I forget what it was, it was something about how I forget people do shove these facts in was something like you got great kids, I think we’re gonna be able to have kids soon, because I froze by I believe we have, right, right. They may not even say something about the eggs, but like the procedure is gonna happen soon. procedure to say that right? Yeah. Yeah. And you find
John Corcoran 32:27
that people do that deliberately. They want to, they want you to ask more, they want to talk about it
Andrew Warner 32:32
more. Yes, they’re desperate for it. And then your your, your challenge is to have the guts as a conversationalist, as an interviewer as a human being to have the guts to say, oh, this person just brought up that they couldn’t have kids. This is a tough conversation. I’m going to go in. And we are trained not to be I don’t know what it is. Americans are just way too frickin nice. It’s like, I can’t I can’t bring this up. Let’s just tell them. We people for years in America would whisper and I guess in the whole world, we whisper the word cancer, cancer, right? We don’t want to talk about the tough things, the personal things, but we should the other challenges. We also have to accept that sometimes what’s interesting to other people is boring to us. So if I didn’t care about them freezing their eggs, I don’t care how many times they shoved that factor in that they were freezing their eggs. I’m not bring it up, though.
John Corcoran 33:21
Great, because very shoved a bunch of other facts that you didn’t pursue.
Andrew Warner 33:25
In the meantime, I only care about the stuff that I care about. Yeah, it Yeah. And the example I give in the book is of I went to Dale Carnegie and Associates, I worked for Dale Carnegie and Associates, their whole thing is the book, How to Win Friends and Influence People, the premises, people have a need to talk about the things that they enjoy makes them feel great. Talk to them about what they love, and they’re going to love talking to you. And I talked to my friend Michael on the train going home in New York. And he just wanted to talk about comic books. And I don’t care about comic books. I have no interest in superheroes or fake stories of any kind. I just want to know, like a real biography. And I was listening and listening and listening. And by the time I was done, I said, I hate I hate this. This is what learning to have conversations is like, I don’t want to ever do it because I can’t sit and listen to this nonsense. And what I discovered was, conversations are better when both sides care. That’s great.
John Corcoran 34:18
We’re running a little short on time. One of the things I’ve done is follow your advice in the book, which is the ditch the outline. So I’ve I’ve pretty much just let this conversation go where where it flowed to. But is there anything else in the book that we haven’t covered? We haven’t touched on that you want to share?
Andrew Warner 34:37
I’ll say that Jeremy is the one who taught me to ditch the outline Jeremy put together this amazing set of notes. I wish I could remember the interview or else I would I would have brought it up in the book. But it was so good. It was so hard working. It was it was amazing. And then in the interview, I kept trying to stick to the notes and the guests was taking me somewhere else. And then I said, you know, I have to talk about this other thing, even though you talk to Jeremy about your story, even though that’s what we we have information on. And we had a better conversation and my guest was happy to ditch the outline, even though my guest put some time into it. And Jeremy, who I felt the worst for, because you did all this work that was then going to waste said, I’m glad that you didn’t do it, that he felt that he that his work could be put aside for what was more important. And just having him give me that permission made me feel more comfortable doing it in other in other situations. And so yeah, absolutely. I’m glad that you did whatever outline you had, this was a great conversation. I’ve been feeling like I’m on fire. Yeah, I’m over talking.
John Corcoran 35:40
I actually, you know, I, I rarely do an outline. I do, you know, research about people. But it’s funny, like, I’ll talk to people before an interview. And I don’t want them to tell me too much. Because I know if they tell me a story right before the interview, they’re not going to tell it to me on the interview, because they’re like, I just told this guy this story. Why do I tell it again? So like, I like to get a little bit of a nugget from them enough to know, oh, there’s an interesting story there. And then I’ll say, let me ask you about that on the interview. We’ll get there. We’ll get there.
Andrew Warner 36:08
I think that’s great. And that’s what’s beautiful about a pre interview conversation that you could actually say, Hey, hang on. Let’s keep this Let’s aim for the interview. So it sounds fresh. You can cut people off very clearly. Yeah.
John Corcoran 36:19
All right. Last question. You know, I’m a big fan of gratitude. I’m sure there’s plenty of people that you’re grateful to have you look around at your peers, you look around your contemporaries, others in your industry could be other podcasters been doing it as long as you have or come since then. Or could be other startup founders. Who do you respect? Who do you admire?
Andrew Warner 36:38
Tim Ferriss, actually, if I think about gratitude, Tim Ferriss has been incredibly good to me over the years, everything from doing my podcast when I was doing like, regular episodes to my 1,000th episode, where he sat and waited for his turn to be on the 1,000th episode two, I did a live event in San Francisco and I needed a headliner. I think our headliner just didn’t show up for some reason. And he showed up and supported my event. And even though he said that he was only going to be able to be there for something like the 45 minutes that we scheduled for, I went over, he stayed for something like two hours talk to people who are in the audience. I think that a lot of times we think of Tim Ferriss as someone who is very, very much like doing the work that needs to be done. And not more than that. I’ve found that he has, I think that my my hunch is the reason that he sticks to the work exactly is because he knows that internally, he has to protect himself because he will give too much of himself. That’s my sense. My sense is the reason he doesn’t answer His email is not because he hates people and doesn’t want to talk to them. Though I don’t imagine that he enjoys spending a lot of time talking to people. I think he’s worried that he might give away too much that he might say yes to too many things that he doesn’t believe in because he likes and supports people, or at least I get that impression. I’d be grateful to him. Yeah,
John Corcoran 37:58
I get that impression that he feels like if he starts doing that he’ll just spend his entire day responding to
Andrew Warner 38:02
emails. Yes, and and maybe saying yes to things that he doesn’t really believe in because he’s just spread. Right? Right.
John Corcoran 38:10
Who else? Anyone else?
Andrew Warner 38:12
Anyone else? Ah, you know what? I think Jeremy Weisz has been incredibly good. One of the things that Jeremy Weisz has done for me, your business partner is he forced me to analyze after I remember doing interviews and saying this, I think I got this even in the book, I said, This interview is good. And we can move on. And Jeremy said, Yeah, but let’s think about it a little bit more. I said, but this one’s good. I don’t have time. And he go, Yeah, but let’s think about what else we could do to make it better. And that post mortem is so important for things that matter if I just take a moment now after interviews to think about what could I have done differently? If I go back and think about where did this book came from? It’s because it’s me at the end of interviews, saying what worked, what didn’t work and and really thinking about it, and then using it to make the next one better? That post mortem is amazing. And also post mortem, not by yourself or with someone else. That’s great.
John Corcoran 39:05
Andrew, Stop Asking Questions is the name of the book, where can people go to learn more about you and get a copy of the book?
Andrew Warner 39:14
They can Google me I’m totally on Google. And if you want to get the book, you can go to a few different places where you can get it. You can see it all at your favorite bookstore or stopaskingquestions.co. Not com, co. Go check it out.
John Corcoran 39:24
Andrew, thanks so much. It’s a pleasure. We should do this more frequently than every 11 years.
Thank you for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast with John Corcoran. Find out more at smartbusinessrevolution.com. And while you’re there, sign up for our email list and join the revolution. And be listening for the next episode of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast.