088: Ryan Williams | Stories From The Influencer Economy

Imagine you had a childhood where you were sent off to an elite prep school?

A place where the rich and famous send their children to be educated. A place filled with the next generation of aristocrats and high-society matrons.

In fact imagine if that was you – and your dorm room was actually formerly home to a U.S. President while he attended that school.

Imagine how that might influence you and your take on the world.

My guest on this episode, Ryan Williams, had that childhood. Ryan actually grew up in the Midwest and had a more humble upbringing but then he had the opportunity to go to this East Coast prep school where he found that life behind the ivy walls was not always as perfect as it may seem.

In this interview, he shares what life at this elite prep school was really like ? and what we all can learn from what goes on behind those Ivy walls.

Ryan was so inspired and influenced by that experience that he started a podcast. Stories From The Influencer economy where he profiles the world of influence and the people who are influential in the new economy.

The podcast was also shaped by his experience working as a marketing executive with the new world of influencers: content creators, YouTubers, podcasters and even Gamers who have levels of wealth and fame which today have come to eclipse that of traditional celebrities like actors and actresses, athletes and musicians.

I wanted to have Ryan on this podcast to share what all of us can learn from these new influencers and how we can apply what they do to our own lives and our businesses.

How can we use their strategies and tactics to build better relationships with influencers in our own lives and to become influential in our own communities.

In this episode, Ryan shares:

• Why if you want to become an influencer today, you must have a social media presence
• Why he also says social media is dead and it’s been replaced by content
• He explains what a disagreeable giver? is
• Why he says just because you have a microphone doesn’t mean you’re going to be heard? ? and what to do about it
• AND His advice for if you’re just starting out and not sure how to build your expertise and reputation

This episode is brought to you by my friends over at The Art of Charm podcast.

The Art of Charm is an itunes Top 50 podcast overall ? one of the few truly independent podcasts in that top 50.

And it’s no wonder why they do so well AoC is packed with wisdom from how to become more productive and professional to how to network better for business.

I was honored to be a guest on the Art of Charm last year and I make sure to listen to almost every episode ? and it?s one of the very few podcasts I can say that for.

You can find The Art of Charm in iTunes or Stitcher or your favorite podcasting app. I really enjoy this show and I think you will as well.

Resources from this Episode:

• InfluencerEconomy.com
• Give and Take

Transcript of Interview:

John Corcoran:	You all set?  All right, 3, 2, 1.  All right everyone.  I?m speaking with Ryan Williams, and Ryan, you went to a boarding school at Choate Rosemary Hall, which is an elite boarding school.  It?s in Connecticut.  Its alumni include President John F. Kennedy, former President [inaudible] [00:00:28], Adelai Stevens.  You?ve got a bunch of actors, famous actors who went there.  I imagine you were surrounded by the children of influencers, many of whom maybe are influencers themselves today.  So is that what inspired you to start a podcast focused on influencers in the new economy?

Ryan Williams:	Well, thank you for having me.  And I have actually ? so I graduated from Choate, and I lived in a dorm called East Cottage ? actually funny story, great segue, East Cottage is where JFK lived when he was at Choate.  We actually had the same room, and they had reconfigured the dorm itself so the rooms were in different places, but half of my room was half of his room.  And so JFK ? and I was vice-president of Choate ? so I had ambitions to be in politics early on.  I was born in Washington, DC.  But yeah, I think [inaudible] Trump was at Choate after I left.  I mean the amazing amount of people that I met, that had so much wealth given to them, it?s hard to fathom.

	But yeah, there were a lot of influential kids that went there.  But it?s now how I started the podcast though.

John Corcoran:	Did you feel like you didn?t fit in?  I mean were you the poor kid or something like that?

Ryan Williams:	Well, I came from Iowa.  So I was born in DC and I was raised in Des Moines, Iowa.  And then I went to Choate for three years.  I loved it.  That three years formed me more than any experience in my life.  But it was just a different world that I had never been exposed to, and I loved it.  Yeah, boarding school was great.  But I wasn?t necessarily like the poor kid there.  I mean my family ? my dad has a burial vault business in Iowa.  It was his dad?s company and I obviously haven?t taken it over.  My dad still has ? he?s had the same job for 40 years, manufacturing vaults and concrete products.  

John Corcoran:	Okay.  And so how then, being surrounded by these types of kids who came from Trumps, you know, you?re in Kennedy?s old dorm room ? I?d be interested to know, is there anything inscribed?  Was there a plaque outside of your room or anything like that?

Ryan Williams:	No.  It?s under the radar.  He actually didn?t graduate from Choate, and he brought a donkey or some farm animal to a school mixer, back when he ? the school wasn?t co-ed.  It was Choate and there was Rosemary Hall.  So he went and got a donkey into a party, a mixer ? it tells you how dated this is.  So he didn?t even graduate.

John Corcoran:	Did he get kicked out from that?

Ryan Williams:	He got kicked out.  And little known fact, Choates? motto is ?Ask not what Choate can do for you, but what you can do for Choate.?  And so there?s some controversy about how he came up with ?Ask not what American can do for you, but what you can do for America.?

John Corcoran:	Interesting.

Ryan Williams:	And that phrase with Choate has been around for 100 years.

John Corcoran:	Wow.

Ryan Williams:	But he?s definitely the son of Choate that everyone loves.  Jamie Lee Curtis went there, a lot of big actors, but the kids themselves that came from a lot of excess and money, it?s just interesting to see them because they had so much given to them at a young age, and they just partied all the time because there?s nothing ? giving kids money and a long leash is just the recipe for addiction.

John Corcoran:	Yeah.  I went to an affluent high school.  My family kind of bought into a neighborhood that had a better school, better school district, so that I could go to a better school.  I kind of felt like ? I was driving a 1982 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme T-top was my first car, believe it or not.  It was very used.  It was like a beat-up old car that my parents hung around in the garage that I would drive.  So I was driving this horrible beat-up old car to high school, and I was kind of like the poor kid.  I totally agree.  You see what money does to kids, particularly when they?re not supervised.

	So did you see a lot of children of influencers, children of affluent ? at Choate who were out of control?

Ryan Williams:	Yeah, just degenerates.  I mean you could definitely see ? a fair amount of people got expelled.  So Choate had this terrible scandal in the ?80s that was on 60 Minutes, where these kids were trafficking a lot of cocaine ? Choate?s not going to like this interview, but they?ve ? because they don?t like to tell the story, but these kids traveled to South  America to traffic a bunch of coke, to bring back to Choate.  Choate found out, and I think they told Customs, but these kids got stuck at the airport.  So 15 kids got expelled.  60 Minutes picked it up.  Exactly what we?re talking about.  Kids, excess, elite school, drug bust.

	It?s a great story.  And so they did a one-strike drug policy after that.  So you smoke pot once, you?re gone.  And so there were a fair amount of kids that definitely, they didn?t take it that seriously that they were there.  Like I was terrified.  I?m just like, dude, my parents are spending so much money at this school, how could I even screw it up by smoking weed in my dorm?  And people would do it, and they had no common sense.  And really, they had a long leash, and so a fair amount of kids got expelled.  

John Corcoran:	So aside from the kids who were kind of bad apples or who took the money and kind of squandered it in a sense, what did being surrounded by this community ? how did it influence your perception of what it takes to become an influencer, to become successful in today?s economy?

Ryan Williams:	I got to ? I had amazing access.  Like I spent time with Mikhail Gorbechov, when he came to speak at Choate.  Actually one of my yearbook photos was me peeking over his back, with his two secret service agents in this black and white photo.  So I got exposed to all these great minds, and speakers would come.  It really showed me that you have to find your passion.  And I think there was a division at Choate.  There were the people that loved to make money, and so they went into banking after college.  And then others that figured out a way to do something they cared about.  

	And so I think from a young age, they always kicked around the idea of being open and thinking critically about your decisions in life.  And I definitely think I would not have had a podcast or taken this risk as an entrepreneur without the Choate experience.  Because they were always preaching, evaluate your options.  Be critical, but also open-minded with people.  Having access to someone like Mikhail Gorbechov, it just completely rocks your thinking.  I was 17, 18 at the time.

John Corcoran:	Mm-hm.  So it sounds like between the two, between the make money track and the be creative, follow something you?re passionate about track, you took the latter.

Ryan Williams:	I took the latter.  I mean I had been a marketing executive for seven years in LA.  One startup I joined got acquired by Disney.  Another one, Machinima, it was valued at a$200 million when I left.  And another startup state ? I was in the U.S., out of LA, and they were a London-based technology company that I worked for.  And they all were really successful.  So money was never a motivator necessarily, but yeah, I had a lot of entrepreneurship opportunities to make money.  And now it?s like, okay, life?s too short.  I had a baby daughter a year ago, and that was right around the time I started this journey that I?m on right now.

John Corcoran:	Wow.  So kind of like the crazy, radical decision I made.  My son was about ? my older son was about a year old when I decided to start my own business.  So what was that like, going from working for other companies that had been successful, to now doing your own thing, being your own boss and being an entrepreneur?

Ryan Williams:	It?s a lot longer journey.  It?s such a long-term end game for me.  I?ve tried to build things from the ground up and do it the right way with relationships.  I know you?re great at helping people, and trying to add value and give to others.  And building brick by brick, it?s such a grind to try to launch your own company.  And I didn?t want to raise venture capital.  And so having other entrepreneurs be my bosses drove me crazy because I would be right about stuff.  I?m very good at marketing.  I?m competent in that.  And they would never always agree with me, and it was always a challenge to get through to these CEOs.

	Because if you?re an entrepreneur that raises venture capital, you?re wired completely differently than everyone else.  These people I worked for ? I don?t know if you just read this article about Kobe Bryant that came out ? where Kobe Bryant is essentially a documentary on Showtime and he talks about how he doesn?t really have any friends.  Because he?s just so focused on his mission, that he can?t get close to people.  And I felt like a lot of the entrepreneurs that I?d been around as a consultant or worked for, were so driven to succeed that they were difficult people to be around.

	And so having my own business is a lot harder.  It?s a lot riskier, but I get to call my own shots.  So if it fails, it?s on me, and it?s not me making a recommendation about how to market something.  It?s me actually marketing myself.  

John Corcoran:	How did you decide that you would start a podcast, and that would be the focus of your business?

Ryan Williams:	I had the idea for years.  Influencer economy, I started thinking about Machinima when I watched all these gamers and YouTube bloggers making hundreds of thousands of dollars as teenagers, going to trade shows like Comicon and E3 and Pax, and signing autographs.  There was a story where Dwight Howard from the NBA was at a pro gaming conference, next to this gamer, Optic Hex, and Dwight Howard had no one in line to get an autograph, and this guy, Optic Hex, had 100 people deep.  And Dwight was just like, ?What?s going on here??  

	And I loved how these old-school famous celebrities were being disrupted.  I don?t like that word necessarily.  I think it?s over-used, but these do-it-yourself entrepreneurs who were building on platforms like podcasting and YouTube, buying, blogging, and I was like, I?ve got to get in there and I?ve got to create, to understand their stories, and I want to tell their stories.  And so the book, the podcast, all these products, came from just a passion and a curiosity around the topic of influencers and building your own businesses.

John Corcoran:	And you?re in the midst of turning your interviews from, as we speak, from the podcast into a book.  We talked about that a little bit off air beforehand.  Do you think it?s easier today to become an influencer because of the tools that exist in the new economy?

Ryan Williams:	I think it?s becoming more difficult as the tools get more mature.  And there?s a first adopter opportunity.  If you join YouTube early, you created a channel early, like Freddie Wong, who was on my show, he has 7 million subscribers now.  But he was one of the first people to publish on YouTube before you could even monetize, before they had partners.  And you, for example, you?ve had your podcast for over two years, right?

John Corcoran:	Yup.

Ryan Williams:	You have a first mover advantage because you could be one of the first business podcasts to succeed, and you?ve done a great job because you have good content, but you also ? you have legacy and longevity.  And that matters now.  Just because everyone has a microphone, doesn?t mean you?re going to get heard.  So I think the opportunities are there, but the discovery is getting more challenging as these platforms mature.

John Corcoran:	That?s interesting coming from a marketing executive.

Ryan Williams:	Yeah.

John Corcoran:	A little bit cynical, I might say?  Or just ? you?re just pointing out the difficulty of breaking through all the noise?

Ryan Williams:	Yeah.  I mean my entire business that I actually get income from ? because I monetize the podcast in small ways ? is consulting with entrepreneurs, creatives and companies to help them get heard.  So I am a big believer you can get heard, but you have to ? nothing worse than the term, ?Let?s go viral.  Hey, Ryan, can we take this thing viral?  Let?s get a YouTube or let?s make a video.?  And you have to set yourself up to succeed.  I believe the book itself and the podcast ? and your podcast as well ? is a great resource to give people the tools to arm themselves to get heard.

	So I?m completely optimistic about the opportunities.  I just think it?s very difficult now with everyone talk about ? like podcasting is so hot.  And it?s going to be more and more difficult to get discovered in iTunes.  I was featured in New and Noteworthy, and it did really well, and I peaked No. 3 in business.  But to think about if I started my podcast tomorrow how hard it would be to get picked up by Apple, with every new podcast that gets out there.

John Corcoran:	Yeah.  So there?s a real tension ? I feel this tension and I think other people feel this tension ? there?s so many different tools.  There?s YouTube, there?s podcasting, there?s blogging, there?s Twitter, there?s Facebook.  There are all these different tools that can help to establish you as an expert or an influencer, to help you rise to the cream of the top.  What do you advise people to do?  Do you say people should focus on a handful of them?  Should they establish a foothold on every platform?  

Ryan Williams:	Yeah, my advice is ? I teach a class about how to launch your idea, and do workshops.  And so I have a month checklist that I give people.  The first thing is to buy a web domain for your idea, and just get your website up, get an email acquisition button at the top.  Emails are the most powerful way to connect with people.  And then prioritize your platforms.  Images are heavy, so I think Instagram and Pinterest are the best opportunities.  Facebook, you have to pay essentially now because it?s so noisy.  We worked at Disney, and we convinced all these big, like Pixar type companies and the Disney Parks, to spend millions of dollars to acquire Facebook fans.

	And now I would be so mad if I was at Disney, and Facebook?s making me pay millions of dollars to then reach these fans that I?ve already paid them for.  That?s such a scheme.  So I think Facebook ? I don?t advise people to invest in that.  But social media is over.  Like I used to be a social media consultant, and I?m over it.  Social media is done.  It?s all about the content within these platforms.  So in order to be relevant, you have to create something of value.  And I think podcasting is the lowest barrier of entry because it?s audio, it?s easy to ? everyone has Skype and a microphone now.  But I think podcasting is great if you want to build content.

	YouTube as well, if you want to be on camera and be a creator.  And then Buy In even.  It?s funny talking to biners that have big followings.  They don?t even want to use YouTube.  Like why would they?  They?re making $10,000, $15,000 writing content on Buy In, and it?s so much easier for them.  

John Corcoran:	So you say social media is dead.  So I?m interested.  I want to follow up on that because one thing I?m curious about is not that long ago, maybe seven, eight years ago, you could be an influencer without any social media presence because there really wasn?t any social media.  But now could you be an influencer without any social media presence?  Or do they go hand in hand?  Do you have to have that social media presence?  Because it seems like a lot of the people that we consider influencers today ? and I think of a lot of the guests that you?ve had on your show ? are people who have heavy social media presence, or large followings.

Ryan Williams:	Yeah, I think you could definitely be an influencer without social media, but those are a rare category of people that have been around, and they have a legacy.  Like George Clooney, for example, is an influencer.  Doesn?t use any social media.  And in some ways, he doesn?t want to.  Because ? I had a great conversation with a YouTube manager last week.  I haven?t posted it yet.  And she works with Hannah Hart, who is the first YouTube creator to get a book publishing deal and to have a book on the New York Times Top Ten List.

	It?s called My Drunk Kitchen is her YouTube channel and the name of her book.  So it?s just funny recipes and stories.  And Sarah, who?s the manager, she was telling me that Clooney and all these A List actors don?t want social media in a lot of ways because it gives them metrics, and it gives them numbers that actually validates whether or not they?re influential based on data.  And so she goes to book publishers or studios and says, ?We have 2 million subscribers on YouTube.  Every video gets an average of 5,000 likes, and we get 2,000 comments per video,? and she has data that shows that?s she?s actually influential.  

	And I think the rarified era of the celebrity is dead, and that era has moved on.  I talk a lot about death.  I promise, I?m not a morbid individual, but ? 

John Corcoran:	That might explain though your upbringing, right?  You said your father creates ?

Ryan Williams:	Yeah, exactly.  Exactly.  So we?ve reached this point where I think all creators from now on have to come from the web, and the only way you have a following on the web is by social media or building content around things that you?re passionate about or really knowledgeable on.

John Corcoran:	I want to ask you about the ? you?ve mentioned a few of the guests that you?ve had on your podcast.  But I want to ask you a little bit more in-depth about the different guests that you?ve had.  I think you?ve had about 40 episodes so far.  So what are some ?

Ryan Williams:	We celebrated our first birthday this week.

John Corcoran:	Congratulations.

Ryan Williams:	I?m so excited.

John Corcoran:	Yes, very good.  So tell me a little bit about some of the ? what you?ve learned in the course of the past year.

Ryan Williams:	So one of my favorite guests is somebody you?ve had on as well, Adam Grant.

John Corcoran:	Excellent guest.

Ryan Williams: 	The book, Give and Take.  So Adam really has ? like I?ve had the philosophy, and you subscribe to it as well ? like we helped each other without even ever meeting.  This is our first conversation.

John Corcoran:	Yes.

Ryan Williams:	And we?ve already tried to help each other in business.  I thought the data he provided around givers succeeding the most and failing the most was game-changing for me.  Because you have to have your own self-interests aligned with giving.  And you can get taken advantage of if you?re a giver.  And also I figured out how to weed out takers more, so I test people with helping them, to see their reaction.  And I can scope out the takers a lot more easily now.

John Corcoran:	Yeah.  You can also test them with asking for help too.  

Ryan Williams:	Yeah.  Oh totally.

John Corcoran:	It can be something as simple as, ?Could you retweet this??

Ryan Williams:	Yes.  Yeah.  And so I love that conversation.  I had Willie Geiss on my show, and he?s a friend from college.  So I got to go to The Today Show office, where he works, and I hadn?t been there.  And he?s this host ? he?s doing so well for himself.  And what was great about him is he also interviewed Adam Grant for The Today Show, so we have a guest in common.  And you have a guest in common with The Today Show, Willie Geiss.  The fact that that?s even fathomable in this era where we?re all mini media companies in our living rooms and our converted garages that are now offices.

	That was the transformational moment where I felt like I had everything I believe about media and having a suitcase with your gear, and bringing it to people?s offices to do interviews, is actually coming to fruition.

John Corcoran:	Yeah.  Although I?ll say it probably took The Today Show less time to book Adam Grant.  It took me about six months.

Ryan Williams:	Oh really?

John Corcoran:	Yeah.

Ryan Williams:	Oh interesting.

John Corcoran:	Yeah.

Ryan Williams:	And how did it go down?

John Corcoran:	I first started contacting him, I think, around the time he?d had the New York Times profile, the huge New York Times profile.  So he was just way in demand.  And what I did is I just  used his strategies on him.  So I just turned around, and he gave me his publicist and said, ?She?ll get you booked,? and then she never booked me.  So I just kept on referring other guests and other business to his publicist.  And I think she got some business out of it.  Eventually finally she relented and she scheduled me.

Ryan Williams:	Oh no way.

John Corcoran:	Yeah.  I also quoted him in a bunch of articles too.

Ryan Williams:	So you helped her get publishing, authors?

John Corcoran:	Right.  So he said that she would get me ? she was independent, independent like book publicist ?

Ryan Williams:	Yes, I worked with her too.  She was really nice.

John Corcoran:	Yeah, yeah, but it took a while.  So I just continued to ? I gave her other ? like I actually referred other larger podcasters to her to get Adam ? and I got Adam placed on other larger podcasters ?

Ryan Williams:	Oh, like Art of Charm?

John Corcoran:	Yup, like Art of Charm, like other big podcasts like that.  And then eventually they were like, ?All right, all right, all right.  We?ll come on your stupid little podcast.?

Ryan Williams:	She surrendered?

John Corcoran:	Yeah, exactly.

Ryan Williams:	Like raising the white flag?

John Corcoran:	Right, right, yeah.  

Ryan Williams:	So I got ? I was introduced to him by my friend who went to Wharton.  So my friend never met Adam, and he published a great article about raising a moral kid in the New York Times.  So my friend?s like, ?Hey, you should talk to my friend Ryan.?  And I had just published an article on Medium, how helping people succeed in business by giving without expecting anything in return is the best business model.  And he ? so my friend sent him that article, and it was like, ?I?m entering you guys.?  Adam then responded right away, and was like, ?Hey, my research aligns with what you?re doing.?  

	And then I got him on within two weeks.  

John Corcoran:	Oh nice.

Ryan Williams:	And my microphone broke that day, and I was like, ?I can?t reschedule.  There?s no way I can get it back.?  So my microphone isn?t as perfect as I had thought it was going to be, so I edited out a lot of my dialog.  Because I was like, ?I?ve got to do this.  I can?t wait.?

John Corcoran:	That?s funny.

Ryan Williams:	But I love ? I think that for the guests in general, that you get to pick their brains.  Like one skill I?ve realized is I?m a much better interviewee now when I go onto other people?s podcasts ? at least I think I am ? you be the judge of that, as will your listeners.  But I think I?ve learned how to answer questions a lot better.  Because Brian Coppelman, for example, he has a podcast, The Moment, and he directed Rounders, the poker movie.  I tweeted him.  ?Hey, I?m going to New York.  I?d love to have you on.?

	And he [inaudible] [00:22:51] his email.  I went to his office in Upper East Side of New York City ? never met him in my life ? and we talked for over an hour.  And everyone tells me that?s one of their favorite episodes.  

John Corcoran:	Oh, very cool.

Ryan Williams:	Because he?s similar to us, where he was 30, he had a law degree, and his wife said to him, ?You?ve got to explore your creativity and you need to write a movie script.?  And that was ? the rest is history.

John Corcoran:	Cool story.  So tell me a little more about some of the other guests that you?ve had and some other lessons that you?ve learned, and particularly, you mentioned Adam Grant.  We should actually dive into that a little bit because there are a lot of people who haven?t read that book.

Ryan Williams:	At giveandtake.com.  There?s three chapters online if you want to check it out.

John Corcoran:	And the basic message behind the book is that it?s better to be a giver than a taker, and you?re more likely to be successful in business and in life.  And you know, I think that the response that some people have to that, particularly if they?re struggling, particularly if they feel like they?re not making the income that they deserve or they need more clients, or they need more business or whatever, is, well, why should I go out and give to other people when I need ? I need ? I?m the one who needs help ? why should I go out and help someone, particularly someone who?s really successful, when really, I want to get their help?

Ryan Williams:	Right.  And there?s ? it?s like Jedi mind tricks, right?  You try to figure out ? I love how she just ? the publicist for Adam Grant relented.  She?s just like, ?I give up.  You?ve done so much for me.  You?re reverse engineering Adam?s book.?  Yeah, I think for me, it?s ? I had to retrain myself in some ways.  You know, I had to ? because I always believed the philosophy, but I didn?t have a strategy around it.  And that book helped me conceptualize it.  My first guest, Bernie Burns, is a juggernaut on online video space.  If you?re a gamer, you?ve definitely watched his videos, and his company rakes $2.5 million on [inaudible] [00:24:50] for a movie.

	He has 10 million subscribers on YouTube, 3 billion video views.  So it?s like [inaudible] for games.  And they do Machinima series.  Very niche.  But he came on my podcast and I call this the first follower.  It?s actually a chapter in the book, is about your first follower, and it?s a great tech talk by Derek Siebers about there?s this guy, he?s a stoner at a rock show, like in the field at like Coachella.  And he?s dancing like he?s hallucinating.  And Derek talks about how, when you create a movement, everyone wants to be a leader.  But you have to be a follower for someone?s movement.

	And so Bernie was my first guest, and he gave me social proof to ? I got six guests because of him.  And people heard the podcast with him on it and were like, ?Oh yeah, I?ll come on your show.?  And so my first five guests were YouTubers.  My fourth guest was Fula, this amazing German comedian DJ YouTuber.  He did my theme music for free.  So getting social proof and the first follower for the movement, what I think is a movement at least ? I don?t want to get too far ahead of myself, but there?s a lot to be said for getting that person to believe in you and give you credibility to the market.

John Corcoran:	Mm-hm.  And it?s interesting because the process of giving, in our new economy, it shifts a little bit because it?s one thing to be talking to someone ? the thing people can understand, you?re talking to someone at a cocktail party you?ve just met, and they?re looking to hire an IT person.  Oh, it turns out your cousin is looking for a new job.  You put them together, bam.  You?ve given.

Ryan Williams:	Yes.

John Corcoran:	But it?s a different matter to think about it in new contexts, like through social media or people that you know in your extended network or making introductions or other sorts of things.  You and I were talking beforehand about a membership community that you and I both belong to, and taking that approach even to that community, where you don?t even know people.  You don?t even see them face to face.  But giving in that context as well.

Ryan Williams:	Yeah, it?s funny talking to people that don?t subscribe to that model, and then they hear about it, and they?re like, ?Oh, that person thinks like you.?  Like they think that they can give and help, and it?s good for them.

John Corcoran:	It?s funny though.  When you read the book and you think about this philosophy, then you start seeing the takers in your life, don?t you?

Ryan Williams:	Oh yeah.  It?s so eye-opening.  And another aspect of it is the disagreeable giver.  So I had this guy, Paul Jarvis on my podcast, and he?s a guru in self-publishing.  He has a really good business podcast, Invisible Office Hours, and he?s just a really great resource.  Great email list.  And I don?t know if you can swear on your show, but he calls himself ? he?s a nice A-hole.  And he?s not going to BS people.  And he?s a completely disagreeable giver, where he?s on the surface, cranky and you think he?s a taker, but beneath it all, he came on my podcast for over an hour.

	And I think podcasting, in a lot of ways, it?s like mentoring.  You know, you get to talk to these people that you look up to, and help your community learn, help yourself learn.  And I told him, ?Dude, you?re not an A-hole.  Come on.  You?re so giving.?  But his aura of disagreeableness in some ways is part of his personality and who he is, but it?s also ? that kind of person is important to recognize, at least I think so.

John Corcoran:	Well, if he was a disagreeable taker, he probably wouldn?t be as successful as he has been so far.

Ryan Williams:	Right.  And he talks about building email lists and selling products.  You can?t build an email list and sell products to them if you aren?t a giver.

John Corcoran:	No.  I want to ask a little bit about the entertainment industry because you?ve worked in the entertainment industry, and some people ?

Ryan Williams:	Yeah, it?s the worst.

John Corcoran:	Right.  Some people might say ?

Ryan Williams:	The reason why I?m not working there anymore.

John Corcoran:	And I worked in the entertainment industry earlier in my career, so I know a little bit about it.  Not as much as you do, but ? so do you think that these rules that we?re talking about, being a giver, not a taker, do they not apply to the entertainment industry?  Because I?m sure that you can think ? you and I can name ? we wouldn?t name them probably on this podcast, but off air we?d name some names of some people who are probably ? might be takers.  Are they really takers?  And they?ve been successful in spite of these rules?

Ryan Williams:	Yeah, I think that there?s definitely a lot of takers in certain types of personalities.  I think a lot of entrepreneurs and executives at startups are takers.  I mean they?re motivated by greed and money and ego, and they?re narcissistic.  I think any industry where you have a very hierarchical status of entertainment, politics and entrepreneurship, it?s almost like you have to reach a level of success before people start giving back.  For the longest time, Andrew Carnegie or these titans of industry back in the 1900s, they didn?t give back until they were dying.

	And so they transformed then, but they spent their whole life taking.  And I think in entertainment, absolutely.  The structure itself of being an assistant ? so I would interview for jobs when I first moved to LA, coming from DC, and I would answer someone?s phone to pay my dues, which was so dumb.  And they told me I was not qualified.  I have a college degree.  I can write.  I have worked professionally for three years.  And then this woman is like, ?Get out of my office.?  And she walked out mid-conversation because I was under-qualified to answer her phones.

	And that kind of mentality is so small-minded, and it?s definitely not a giving mentality.

John Corcoran:	Yeah.  I can think back to an interview ? I had gigs like that early in my career as well, and I remember a situation where I was interviewing for a second assistant job.  The bigger executives have first, second and third assistants, and there?s hierarchy to the assistants.

Ryan Williams:	And they all wear headsets.

John Corcoran:	They all wear headsets, right.  And they roll calls.

Ryan Williams:	Oh my God, that?s what she said I couldn?t do.

John Corcoran:	You couldn?t roll calls?  Okay.  So rolling calls, for those who are uninitiated, means your boss is driving home for the day or driving somewhere, and you?re on the phone connecting calls for them because heaven forbid that they actually place the call themselves.  And so the funny thing was, I came in for an interview with a first assistant to be a second assistant, and he was rolling calls for the boss who was driving home.  It was like 7:00 at night, maybe 8:00 at night.  And he would be asking me questions and then in the middle of an answer, he would cock his head to the side because the headset was on, and start talking to the boss.

	It completely threw me off.  I?m in the midst of answering a question, and then ? it completely threw me off.  But let?s get back to the original point.

Ryan Williams:	No, it?s hysterical that you?re ? I?m cracking up.  I mean this is just reminding me of how certain business people don?t understand the long-term.  I think the wealth of relationships is built on the long game.  And what I try very hard is to not ask people for much to come on the show.  I ask them to tweet it out or share on Facebook.  But I don?t want to do a cheap favor, and I don?t want people to feel like they?re doing me favors.  Even Willie Geiss, when I had him on, he?s obviously a very successful guy.  But I wanted to talk about our college stories, just like Big Sky Basketball Tournament.

	Because he wrote about it in his bestselling book, Give and Take ? Willie Geiss wrote Good Talk, Dad.  So he ended up writing about a book with his dad, who?s Bill  Geiss that?s on CBS This Morning, and I didn?t want Willie to be my first guest.  I could have very easily got him, but I wanted to have 20 episodes under my belt.  Because I think a lot of people burn out their relationships, and you?re the guru on this ? because they ask for small favors that really, they?re cheap and they?re not worth it.  It?s better to not ask really for anything, and then hopefully the person that offers the help, or you just ? you try to use the resource and that person as someone to help you when you really need it.

John Corcoran:	Right.  Or turn it around and help them as much as you can, overwhelmingly.  And eventually, they?re going to be like, ?Ah, I?ve got to do something for you,? and then it?s amazing.

Ryan Williams:	Yeah, exactly.  And there?s ? for me, there?s certain philosophies now that, in the modern era, you have to ? that?s what the influence economy really is.  You have to pay it forward because you got up most likely through the Internet, and you raised yourself up from the madness that is social media, podcasting or YouTube.  For example, Freddie Wong is my favorite guest.  So he?s got this video game, High School Series.  He raised $2 million on Kickstart or Indie Gogo ? he has 7 million YouTube subscribers.

	And the guy?s perks for his campaign ? you want to talk about this by the way?  I think perks are so valuable.

John Corcoran:	Explain what you mean.

Ryan Williams:	Well just in general adding value to your customers and your email list in creative ways, are a way to really embrace your personality and also connect with the audience.  For perks at Kickstart, every time you buy a reward, you get certain thresholds of perks for how much you donate.  So he did this really cool perk for $2,500, you could go to Disneyland with the cast and the crew of this video game, High School Series.  It?s been watched over 100 million times.  So this is juggernaut.  Another perk was, for $5,000 he would ? Freddie would come to your front door and deliver donuts from Tri Dough to anywhere in the U.S. 

John Corcoran:	Wow.

Ryan Williams:	One of my tentative chapter titles is Would Quentin Tarantino Bring You Donuts?  Never.  That?s just not what he does.  But when you come from this economy of your fans and your community, that?s your lifeblood, and you have to reward them in ways that are authentic and real to you, to build a longstanding relationship with them.

John Corcoran:	That?s a great lesson.  Okay, I want to wrap this up because we?ve been going for a little while here.  But I can?t leave without asking you ?

Ryan Williams:	Did we go on too many tangents?

John Corcoran:	No, no, I thought these were great.  These were great.  But I can?t leave without asking you about being a comedian because you actually were a comedian at one point.  So naturally, my question is, tell me a funny joke.

Ryan Williams:	So that?s why ?

John Corcoran:	No, I?m kidding.

Ryan Williams:	? one of the reasons why I stopped doing comedy.  Because the second you tell someone, and you?re at dinner, hey, can you pass the salt?  Tell me a joke.

John Corcoran:	Tell me a joke.  Make me laugh.

Ryan Williams:	Yeah.  [Inaudible] [00:35:07] is just the worst. 

John Corcoran:	Yeah.  That must be fun.  You?re at a dinner table and everyone stops, puts down their fork and waits for you to tell them a joke.

Ryan Williams:	Yeah, Ryan?s a comedian.  And then, ?Oh, no way.  Tell me a joke.?  And then you realize why comedians are always on the side of depressed, because the pressure to be funny is really ? it?s a lot.

John Corcoran:	Well, let me ask you this then.  Let?s relate it to our current discussion, which is influencers.  So what did getting on stage and trying to make people laugh, what did that teach you that you bring into your work today?

Ryan Williams:	I think I just am so informal with every business pitch I do, and I try to connect with people.  Because if someone hires me, it?s going to be for me, not necessarily the product or the services I do.  I think it?s just the relationship.  So I?m very off the cuff.  Even my podcasts, I was joking about tangents, but I can talk about ? like Paul Jarvis has rats.  He owns rats.  So we talked about that because it?s just who he is.  And I think in general I try to connect with people.  And you?re the same way.  Where I find things in common that I think are interesting, and I really am curious about connecting with people on stuff that is relevant, versus just talking to talk.

	And I think comedy in general gave me more of an improvisational approach to business that it sometimes backfires on me.  Because some people don?t think I?m being serious, but I?m very serious about the work I do.  And the job itself is the priority, but the process around working should be more ? as least stressful as possible.  

John Corcoran:	Good advice.  Okay, final question.  So this is your Oscar speech.  You worked in the entertainment industry, so you have probably been preparing this for a long time, I imagine.  You?ve just been awarded a ? it can be a Lifetime Achievement Award, Best Director, Best Writer, whatever it is, but tell me about the relationships, the people that you thank.  We know your family, of course, but particularly the business relationships that have contributed to your success in your career so far.  Mentors, colleagues.

Ryan Williams:	So I?d start off thanking my daughter, and from there, I would thank Rachel Romero from Machinima, who introduced me to Bernie Burns, my first guest, who was my first follower and advocate.  I?d thank Bernie for opening the door up to all these people that I got as my first few guests on the podcast, back when it didn?t even exist.  I?d also want to thank Big Sharm, one of my best friends who?s an executive at Russell Simmons? All Depth Digital.  

	His help has been instrumental.  Ryan Stoner, Aaron Dotage, business colleagues that have helped me along the way, and they?re the kind of guys that, if you ask them to tweet something out, to make the guest that you have feel good, they do that for you.  And my friend Cullman Green, my brother Michael.  I have a countless amount of people that have helped me behind the scenes.  And you know getting a podcast off the ground is not easy work.  And so the connections I?ve had, the warm introductions, Neil Ketcar, my buddy who introduced me to Adam Grant.  

	Just overwhelming support of people that have put me in a position to succeed.  And I could list a lot more.

John Corcoran:	But the music is coming up and it?s cutting you off, so we?ll ?

Ryan Williams:	Ah, ah, yeah.  But I think I would get a tear jerker from the crowd by mentioning my daughter.  Because I started the podcast and this whole new reinvention of my career right when she was born.  And I wanted to just not be that guy that didn?t do what he was potentially supposed to do or needed to do.  And the daughter, my little baby Julia, she was 100 percent the catalyst.

John Corcoran:	Great lesson.  Okay, where can people find out more about you, Ryan?

Ryan Williams:	They can go to influencereconomy.com for the podcast and information about the book, which hopefully will be coming out in the fall.  And they can call me on Twitter at ryanjwill, and if they would like to subscribe on iTunes, they can search for Stories From the Influencer Economy for the podcast.

John Corcoran:	Okay, and if the book?s coming out in the fall, you?ve got to get cracking.

Ryan Williams:	I?ve got to get cracking.

John Corcoran:	Yeah.

Ryan Williams:	The chapters are outlined.

John Corcoran:	You?re halfway there.

Ryan Williams:	I?m halfway there.  I have an editor.

John Corcoran:	An editor can do all the work.

Ryan Williams:	Yeah.  No they don?t actually.  I was so annoyed.  Come on, carry more weight.  They said to rewrite a bunch of stuff.  I thought, wait, didn?t I hire you to rewrite this?  It was like, oh, I went on the lower payment plan.

John Corcoran:	We need to re-evaluate this relationship, expecting that you would ? by rewrite, I thought you meant you were going to do it.

Ryan Williams:	Yeah.

John Corcoran:	All right, thank you, Ryan.

Ryan Williams:	Cool.  Thank you.

John Corcoran:	All right.  Let me stop one, stop the other.  

Transcribed by GMR Transcription